Listen to the episode here.

Join us this week as Angie shares the unhinged story of Doug Hegdahl. This POW during the Vietnam War single-handedly saved the lives of over 250 men by memorizing their names and info to the tune of “Old McDonald Had a Farm.” 

This episode pairs well with: 
Jesse Owens and Carl Luz Long – WWII 
Tootsie Rolls at the Chosin Reservoir

Transcript:

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast, the podcast where two compulsive nutjobs read history memes and then research the backstories behind them and then come forth and tell the other human what we’ve only recently learned and hope that at least most of it is brand new to their ears and you’ve joined us in a long. Well, I mean, now that you say that I’m very concerned. I’m totally kidding. You’re welcome. 

And by true, I meant like, you know, we can back that up with sources. So I’m going to say my name and then I got a story. Well, I’m going to make you say I’m Teresa and that’s I’m Angie. Okay, story time. 

Skippers skip ahead. I taught English in Japan for a couple years. One of the friends that I made over there taught English at a college. And so for him, he is his high school or college class either way, he taught the same group of humans for four years. 

That’s cool. And when they graduated, he had seen them for four years of lessons. At the last lesson, he spent Friday class straight faced, it said everything I’ve taught you is a lie. 

Angie: And how they react. And as you should. But also with complete confidence because anybody that’s willing to say everything I’ve taught you is a lie, generally is a fabulous teacher. Yeah. That’s, that’s where I stand. 

So that’s my field box. My my big wisdom for the day. Angie for professor. That’s that’s me. 

Yep. So I would be the type of professor. Have you ever seen the meme of like my professor today walked in, dressed like this, and it’s this like mid 30s professor with his like khaki pantheon and a hoodie and his beanie down to his eyes and a to go cup of coffee filled with Nyquil and his responses. I don’t feel good today class. 

You haven’t toy finished this cup. That’s the type of professor I would be. Get convinced about myself anyways. I just got so jealous of last story being all Teresa’s story that I’ve decided it’s an Angie takeover day. 

Theresa: Honestly, I’m here for it because I can just do needlework. So I love this knock yourself out. 

Angie: Okay, well then I’m just going to start off with my sources. The incredible story of a Vietnam War hero who survived 12 hours of drift at sea and tricked his POW camp captors into thinking he was an illiterate fool. Oh, that is an article done for the daily mail by the federal observer author Keith Griffith. This is from February 17th of this year. There is a great article on oh my gosh, I didn’t put the we are the mighty the we are the mighty.org website. I think we both cited it before. 

Yep. How a sailor remembered 250 prisoners of war through song that’s by break like still well. It was done in December of 22. The independent has a great article written by Sheila Flynn from Wednesday 11th of this year of just this of December. So I think that’s pretty cool. 

Yeah. How a Navy sailor fell off a ship then became a Vietnam POW hero. And then the National Park Service has a site on POWs in American history that I thought was really, really fascinating. You have a chance the National Park Service as always coming through with information you would not expect the National Park Service to have. 

Theresa: You know, they truly are a resource that is underutilized and underfunded. 

Angie: Facts. Facts. Absolutely. And so full of good information and great social media. Right. 

Theresa: Like if you can’t make it to a park, open their social media accounts and enjoy the dopamine rush because 

Angie: we guarantee it you’ll have so much fun. Yeah. And then I looked at a few with P. R. Coles just to kind of kind of understand the position in place of Vietnam in whole in general because it’s not sadly it is not a war we’re taught much about. And it’s not one that I personally know much about my dad was not there. And the family members that I do have, I haven’t had the opportunity to ask them about that moment in their life. 

Theresa: Yeah, the ones I’ve asked, they’re not too forthcoming with the intel. They just don’t want to. 

Angie: And I kind of don’t blame them when you think about the reception that they received. So I did some digging because I just kind of wanted to I wanted to know a little bit more. So all that said, I feel like my story today is kind of a deviation from my normal ones. And I think it is simply because it is so still very relevant today in the hearts and minds of a lot of people. And I didn’t I didn’t fully understand that until I watched a documentary that I’ll mention in a little bit that like these men are still processing some of the things they’ve seen and some of the events that they went through. And they are still getting together with other members of their units and other prisoners that were at the same camp as them. And I think it’s one of those things like, you know how when you see photographs of the civil rights, they’re always in black and white because we’re meant to think it happened longer ago than I did. Yeah, I think it’s similar to that, at least in my brain. So it, I don’t know, I just learned a ton anyway. 

So just going to get into it. Higdahl, the main character of my event here was born on September 3, 1946 in South Dakota to defendants of Norwegian immigrants. His family, they’re devout Lutherans and they spend his entire childhood in South Dakota. Like they’re kind of what you would imagine to be that classic middle middle America family, like he grows up playing sports, he’s an athlete, he works in the family business, kind of exactly what you would expect out of 1946 middle America. 

Yep. He spends his childhood in Clark, South Dakota, where he graduates from high school on May 24, 1966. Immediately afterwards, he joins the US Navy. 

He wants to see Australia. And I just, to me, that’s so funny. I love that that’s the reason he chose to join the Navy. And the Navy, believe it or not, is totally prepared to grant him his wish. At least that’s what the recruiter says. 

Theresa: I mean, here’s, here’s where you get into the side eye, because recruiters for the Navy or military in general. 

Angie: Right. However, in this case, they kind of intended to, I think, they put him, they, I don’t know quite how to word this, they assigned him, I guess, to the USS Canberra, which is a guided missile cruiser that he was told would likely make port of call in its namesake, a city in Australia during his time serving. So I think that’s pretty cool. First of all, I didn’t know that we named ships after other places like that. Like, for some reason in my mind, they’re all like the USS Roosevelt. Like, I didn’t realize there was place names of our allies in the ship naming convention. 

Theresa: Yeah, I can’t say I’ve ever thought about it. Yeah. 

Angie: Neither have I. And now I have questions. I would like to see the list. After the training and after advanced schooling, he had, he attains the rank of seamen apprentice, and then he boards the USS Canberra. He’s trained as a gunner’s mate. However, before his ship can actually make it to the great down under where it was quote sent to patrol off the coast of Vietnam, where American intervention had rapidly escalated. So they’re supposed to be heading to Australia, but they kind of get waylaid to aid in this very uncomfortable tumultuous place that just is getting hotter and hotter by the moment, right? 

Right. And so he ends up in a place called Dixie Station. He’s on board the USS Canberra. Now, for some context, this is a Vietnam era. And if you were as unfamiliar with this as I am, it’s an armed conflict in Vietnam, while in Cambodia, fought between the North Vietnamese, the Democrat Republic of Vietnam, and South Vietnam, the Republic of Vietnam and their allies. 

North Vietnam is supported by the Soviet Union and China, with South Vietnam being supported by the United States and other anti-communist nations. So this conflict takes place between 1955 and 1975. And as we learned, thanks in part to the American CIA, Theresa beautifully covers this in episode 77 regarding the Hmong people. 

Some people are still fighting this conflict, unnoticed to them that it’s actually over. But I highly recommend going back and listening to 77 because Theresa does such a beautiful job of describing these amazing people. 

Theresa: Bring tissue and understand it will wreck you. I do sob during that. Well, I don’t think I sob, but I audibly cry. You can hear me having tough times. I recommend it. 

Angie: Like, not just if you need a good cry, but just to educate yourself on the world that we live in today. But to circle back to Doug and the Dixie Station where he’s sent, Dixie Station is a geographic position in the South China Sea. It’s off the Ming Kong Delta. And from here, the US Navy aircraft carriers, they’re launching strikes and providing close air support for the American and their allies, ground troops in South Vietnam. Now, for fun, and I did not know this, but what PDA says that, quote, Dixie Station was established on May 15, 1965 as a single carrier counterpart to the multi-carrier Yankee Station, which was located further north in the mouth of the Gulf of Tonkin and was responsible for strikes on North Vietnamese targets. Targets for Yankee Station were personally selected months in advance sometimes by President Lyndon Johnson in the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara. 

This results in notoriously restrictive rules of engagement. However, the Dixie Station’s missions were carried out in response to requests for close air support by friendly ground forces engaging in enemy guerrillas warfare in South Vietnam. So, their kind of Dixie Station is kind of like the way that I see it visually anyway, is kind of like the little brother to Yankee Station and more in real time receiving like Yankee is president. 

Theresa: Dixie is flat by the seat of your pants. So we have, okay, we have a proactive reactive. Yes. Yankee proactive, Dixie reactive. 

Angie: Yes. Okay. And I think this part is particularly entertaining. I spent so much time that I probably didn’t need to, but I loved it. So you all have to hear it now. 

The name Dixie was chosen to match that of the phonetic alphabet designated Yankee, resulting in a pun relating to the traditional slang terms for Northern United States and Southern United States with Yankee bombing the North and Dixie bombing the South. Oh, wow. Way too much time learning about this. But, you know, side quest to my side quest, I guess, if you give someone with ADHD the internet, they will go down every rabbit hole humanly possible and learn all the things. So that to say, I learned two fun facts. 

The phonetic alphabet commonly known as the NATO phonetic alphabet is the most widely used set of clear code words for communicating letters of the Roman alphabet like alpha, beta, you know, I have a story for you speaking of. Delighted. Okay. 

Theresa: So I did not know that particular phonetic alphabet. I knew that it existed, right? So I needed to give this was pre-verge. I needed to give my maiden name in a response to like somebody on the phone. And they’re like, okay, how do I, because my maiden name was Daddy. And they’re like, how do I spell it? And I was like, dog, ugly, dog, dog, you. And they pause and I could tell they were trying to be super professional. And they were just like, okay, I’ve blocked it. 

Theresa: Is that you as a new letter or you as in why oh, you. Yeah, I can say that I know about that alphabet alphabet for a completely different and totally bizarre reason. 

But in my real life, I work in the automotive industry wherein you have to read VINs. And so you learn very quickly that you’re going to need that alphabet in your noodle noggin for a quick, easy speaking to people on the other end of the phone. What I did not know is that the words that were chosen for this alphabet are chosen because they are accessible to English, French and Spanish speakers. Like that was wild information I didn’t formally have 

Theresa: before you’re saying that the French and the Spanish speakers, box trot and Yankee, define accessible like within their grasp or easy to pronounce. 

Angie: I suspect more closely related to within their grasp because all like French, Italian and Spanish are all part of the same language. So I suspect it’s because of just ease of access. 

Theresa: Okay, because it works. Fox trot. Oh yes, but of course we say Fox trot all the time. 

Angie: I now need to hear Frenchman read the alphabet. Thanks. I gotta go. But so anyway, less than a year after our friend Hague doll joins the Navy, I think this is such a fun tie-in. Before joining the Navy, he had never actually seen the ocean. 

Theresa: Yeah. Hello, Saka Kauaiya. 

Angie: Yeah, they’re friends. And I am still, for whatever reason, when you told me her story, I accepted that as like fact to not argue with because why would she have seen the ocean? But for someone alive in the 1950s in America, why haven’t you seen the ocean? Okay, counterpoint. 

Theresa: He’s in a landlocked state. If he’s in LA, it had never seen the ocean. It’d be like, sir, have you considered glasses? Press, have you left? 

Angie: Anytime? Yeah. Yeah. So I’m still kind of rubbing my mind around that to be honest. But anyway, I digress. So imagine, he’s spent, he’s never seen the ocean. He is now serving aboard a naval vessel in the heart of like Vietnam, like the beating heart of all of the aircraft. 

Theresa: He joined the Navy without seeing the ocean. Yes. 

Angie: Fascinating. Let that sit there, sink in for a second. Like, I have questions about why the Navy was your choice. But again, he said he wanted to see Australia. And I guess maybe, in his mind, the Navy was the way to do that. But he’s there less than a year. 

It’s between April 5 and 6 1967. Sometime in the pre dawn hours, the 20 year old Higdoll, his ship, it’s about three miles off coast, he somehow gets knocked overboard by the blast from a five inch gun mount. Oh, yeah. And I’ll get to that in just a second. So what does he do? Well, he fashions some sort of life jacket out of his trousers, and then he swims in Trotswater until he’s picked up. 

Theresa: Wait a minute. I learned how to do that in like sophomore PE. Did you not? I did. Oh, okay. 

Angie: I think that we’re all taught that. But yeah. So, but in sophomore PE, we didn’t have to do it for like 12 hours, which he did. Yeah, under duress. Yeah, definitely not under duress. Definitely not in a war zone. Definitely not next to a battle cruiser that’s shooting off mounted guns every, you know, few moments. 

Theresa: I couldn’t buy taxes, but I could make a ad hoc life preserver out of my pants. Facts. Yeah. So why didn’t we learn how to get out of quicksand while we’re learning youthless? 

Angie: Yeah, listen, I’m still pretty pissed about that because our childhood made it seem like it was going to be a far worse. 

Theresa: Yeah, this was going to be a common occurrence in my adulthood. 

Theresa: Yeah, carry on. 

Angie: No, I agree with you. I’ve yet to see it and I’m still ticked about it. So anyway, Higdoll floats around there for about 12 hours before he’s picked up by some Vietnamese fisherman who evidently treated him really well. 

But unfortunately, they do turn him over to the North Vietnamese. At this point, I assume you have similar questions that I had. One being how exactly does one get blasted off your ship? The answer, I guess, is the force of the recoil because even he himself didn’t know. He says, quote, I can’t tell you how I fell from my ship. All I know is I walked up the deck, it was dark and they were firing. 

And the next thing I recall, I was in the water. That would be hair raising. Right now, the other fact to this moment is no one can hear him scream because the guns are firing. So he is looking at his eminent doom. He’s three miles offshore watching his ship blast and coincidentally move away. 

And so he’s kind of thinking, oh, heavens, what do I do? Which leads me to the next question. You might ask, how long does it take for someone on board to notice you’re missing? 

Theresa: It depends. Is he on the Kim Chaka? 

Angie: Dude, I thought I’m not the Kim Chaka at this point too. I was like, I don’t know. He’s on the Kim Chaka. Nobody would notice for weeks. 

Theresa: Yeah, they’re too busy sourcing the poisonous snakes that they’ve unleashed. 

Angie: They’re counting them, not the people. Well, mind you, he did fall into the water in the pre-dawn hours. He was reported missing at 11.30 a.m. at Ship’s muster. This is why they have muster? Yep, they search the ship twice and they thoroughly search it. And officially after the second search, they list him as missing as a result of loss at sea and they provide for him a funeral. 

Because they just, that’s what you do. Yeah. Now, the North assumed him to be some sort of spy for the CIA. Now, unfortunately for him, or rather fortunately for him, he has no ID. So he can’t prove where he’s from. He can’t, nothing that you would normally say, oh, you know, like I serve on this, like this is where this is where I belong. They’re just, like, right over there. 

Like, if you could just call my mom and have her come pick me up, that’d be great. Right. That’s not going to work for him. 

So our boy looks around and he starts thinking real fast. And I have to give you this quote from the Federal Reserve because it makes me laugh so hard. Quote, I had probably the most embarrassing capture story of the entire Vietnam War. 

Hague Dahl recalls in an interview for the 1997 documentary Vietnam POW Stories Survival. I found that my defense posture was just to play dumb. Let’s face it, when you fall off the boat, you have a lot to work with. So he is taken to the Haolau Prison, better known to the men as the Hanoi Hilton. Nearly all the other prisoners there are captured pilots, and he’s an enlisted man and would be at this point considered among the most junior men there. Not only that, but he’s also like the youngest. So he’s not an officer. He’s an enlisted man. And he literally just fell off the boat. 

Theresa: So are you going to tell me that even in a mil- like even in a POW camp that officers were treated better? 

Angie: I wouldn’t say they were treated better. In fact, in this camp by the standards of the guards, the officers were treated worse. Okay. What I did find really interesting, and I don’t know why I had never thought of this before, but rank still matters. 

So even though they’re prisoners, there are ranking officers above you and you still take your orders from them, despite the fact that they’re sitting in the cell next to you. 

Theresa: I could imagine the fast you could give. Oh, what are you going to make me drop to 220? I’d love to sweep the sunshine off the sidewalk. However, sir, I’m kind of relegated to behind these bars. Little busy at the moment. 

Angie: Yeah. Yeah. So here’s where he really drives home his quote unquote, how stupid he is. The prison guards want him to write out these propaganda statements condemning the US. He had evidently seen some of the other officers writings here and he quickly figures out they’re obviously a horse. Like in the documentary, there’s some one of the officers gives some pre-outlandish comments about things that the North Vietnamese wanted him to say. And at one point, he even says that he was both laughing and crying because the believability of some of the stuff that they were coming up with was just asinine. He was like, there is no one that’s going to know these comments are true. Like you’re just kind of making a bunch of BS up here. They’re going to know this is false. But anyway, so he sees this and he realizes his best bet is to happily agree. So he does. 

The guards are delighted. And here’s where we see that moment in every kid’s life where they purposely annoy their mom by asking them how to spell every single word. You know, you know the moment. Yeah. 

Yeah. So every word the guard dictates for him to write, he asks, how do I spell it? And then proceeds to make it super illegible and chicken scratchy. 

So now he’s pretending to be illiterate. And he keeps telling them that he’s just a quote unquote poor peasant from North Dakota. At this point, he becomes known to the guards as the incredibly stupid one. The guards, because they see him as this sort of pot of gold because he’s an American willing to do their bidding, they’re like, heck yeah, they bring a tutor in to teach him to read and write. Oh my gosh. 

Right? But the guards soon find out that he’s completely unteachable. He is simply unable to grasp those rudimentary elements of writing. They even start to think that he can barely see. So they sort of give up this propaganda piece on him like they realize they can’t use him to write these pieces against the U.S. because he simply cannot do it. Not only that though, because they’re convinced he can’t see, they take him to get him fitted for new glasses. And while they do that, he memorizes the route from the prison to the actual city of Hanoi. 

Dang. So, now much to their detriment, they’re assuming he’s completely harmless and basically let him roam free. He’s even tasked with like sweeping up around the place. 

I don’t think at any point they told him to mop the rain away or sweep the sunshine, but they just kind of gave him a broom and let him go about his day. Now, all the while though, he’s memorizing everything, including the location to the front gates of the prison itself. And he’s later able to give all of this information to U.S. intelligence. Now, give me a second to tell you a little bit about his roommates or cellmates, if you will. First, he shares a cell with Air Force Officer Joe Croca, who took the time to teach Higdoll the name and other personal information of the 256 other POWs in the camp. He shares their names, he shares information like capture dates, their method of capture, and personal information that you would be able to confirm their identity with, like the name of their favorite dog. And then, after being with Croc for a while, he moves into the cell of Dick Stratton, who is one of the ranking officers for the time. And like they take to each other like a fish to water. And he realizes, Dick Stratton realizes that our guide, Doug Higdoll, has all this information in his brain and he’s trying to figure out how to best keep it there. So he’s like, put it to a song. So Higdoll remembers the name, capture date, method of death, and personal information of 256 POWs to the tune of Old MacDonald. 

Theresa: Okay, so you have all this. Now, here’s what I’m imagining. Bro finally gets out and he has to sit down with some intelligence officer for three hours. As this, I’ll get to that. Poor human is stuck with a nut, nut, nut, nut, nut, nut, and I am going to break every speak and spell I ever come across because of this stupid song. Carry on. 

Angie: Could you imagine not being able to sleep at night because that’s the song stuck in your head? 

Theresa: I’ve had a toddler with said speak and spell. 

Angie: Right, right. Okay. So to me, the North Vietnamese here because of their assumption that he’s just this illiterate fool, they really set themselves up for failure over and over again. At one point, Stratton once asks Higdoll, what do you do when you lose your weapon? 

You either become a chaplain or an intelligence officer. And I find that really poignant and so did Higdoll because he took that information and remembered everything he saw. The other thing that’s really interesting is that the POWs at this camp have a tap method to communicate with each other that I personally would love to know more about. There wasn’t like a ton of understandable for me information out there, but I know it is out there. And I just think that’s really kind of fascinating. I assume it works something like Morris Code, but I’m not positive. That would make sense to me. 

Right. But meanwhile, back at the prison, you know, he’s sweeping about mine and his business. The guards are so comfortable with him that they just, you know, take their afternoon css’s while he’s sleeping the sleeping a lot. And while they’re doing this, he is able to slowly add dirt to the gas tanks of their truck. 

Theresa: Stratton would later say, quote, Doug Higdoll, a high school graduate from the mess decks, fell off a ship and has five enemy trucks to his credit. He goes on to say that Higdoll is one of only two men he knows of who destroyed enemy equipment while POW. Then Stratton says, I am a world famous Golden Dragon VA 192 with two college degrees, 2,000 jet hours, 300 carrier landings and 22 combat missions. How many enemy trucks do I have to my name? 

Zero. And to me, that just kind of solidifies how highly they thought of each other because Stratton could very easily be one of those people that you know, you totally imagine in the Top Gun movies, that’s just the hot, hot man. The Iceman, yeah. 

Right? But he really, really appreciated Higdoll. This is the point with which I chose to watch the documentary because I needed to know more. And one of the main things that I learned is there is a code of conduct when captured amongst the POWs and all servicemen I don’t know how I didn’t know this, but unknown to me, despite the fact that they’re all prisoners, like I mentioned this earlier, they still hold their rank and respect is given as if it were a normal day at base. 

The most senior ranking officer at the time was Naval Officer James Stockdale, who believe it or not, in 1992 on the ticket of Ross Pro would run for Vice President. But Officer Stockdale puts out an order saying, quote, I put the word out, no think release, except no amnesty. We all go home together. And he forbids anyone from accepting early release from the Hanoi Hilton. So, go ahead. 

Theresa: I mean, I get that he’s going for the all for like the three musketeers kind of oath, but. 

Angie: Well, so here’s the thing that I didn’t mention earlier. There are a lot of prisoners there that have been there for years. And there are prisoners there that need like very active medical treatment now. Right. And so Stockdale’s thought on this is that if they’re not going home, none of us are. Like, get them out first. Right. So, I mean, that kind of work, that makes sense to me. But for one, you know, one reason or another, like to sow dissent or break morale amongst the men, the guards would talk about letting seven prisoners go. And the prisoners that accepted the guards proposal were considered rat things and a traitor to the others. 

Now, like I said, that seems kind of harsh to us. But in the documentary, it kind of makes sense. They were really fighting for the men that have been there, the men that have been dying, the men that have been beaten and tortured in ways we cannot imagine. Right. They’re fighting for them. 

So I get it. Well, in the case of Hedgdahl, he’s given the opportunity and the superior officers among the POWs tell him, in fact, to get out. They order him to leave. Because that way, he can get the information he’s memorized back to the U.S. The first time he’s asked, he defies direct orders and says no. Because, again, to him, it’s an honor thing. The second time, he’s sort of, he’s realized, okay, yeah, he can actually help turn the tide here with the information that he’s got going through his head to the tune of Old MacDonald. So he goes. In fact, the federal observer says that he, quote, was hesitant. 

He did not want to be a tarred brash with a go home early label, but to take the order despite the taste that leaves in his mouth because he knows he can help. So Hedgdahl and two other men are released on August 4, 1969. So he’s been there at minimum three years. 

Right. During his debrief, he recalled all the info via a song to the interviewer who was absolutely gobsmacked. As you said earlier, like, I’m sorry, what? The speaking spells got to go. Yeah. The interviewer asks him, hey, can you slow down? And Hedgdahl responded with, quote, no, it’s like riding a bicycle. You tip over. 

Theresa: Yep. I mean, I get it. At that point, it’s just like just record it. So we both don’t have to go through this. Right. 

Angie: Three decades later, he could still remember the song. And in the 1997 interview, he sings it for you. 

Theresa: Oh, I bet it burned into his brain. Right. 

Angie: But his actions turn the tide for the rest of the POBs. At his release, we are the mighty says that not only did Hedgdahl recite the names of the 256 men who were shot down or captured in North Vietnam. He could say their dog’s names, kids’ names, and or social security numbers. They were the means by which other POWs verified the information given. He picked up all this information through the TAP code, death spelling code, and secret notes. Not only this, but at the Paris Peace Talks in 1970, he was able to accuse the North Vietnamese of torture and murder. 

He even went so far as to accuse them of murdering Dick Stratten, which would ensure that Lieutenant Commander Strachan made it home at the end of the war. Wow. Because now it’s visible to the public, right? And almost immediately, the rest of the prisoners back home at the Hilden Hanoi begin to receive better treatment. So that’s pretty cool in and of itself. But for him, I think the thing that solidified the most in his mind is that his actions change the title for some of these men from missing in action to POW. 

So their wives know they’re still alive. Yeah. And in the documentary I watched, there were some pretty powerful moments where there was an African American pilot, I all of a sudden blinked. I should have wrote his name in my notes. But he could sing. And so the guards at the prison asked him if he would help them put on like a little choir show for propaganda piece to show that they are in fact treated so well and they can have church service and they can sing and blah, blah, blah, blah. 

And this pilot obviously doesn’t want to do that because that’s not true. Like my men aren’t happy. They’re not comfortable. They’re not safe. They’re not fed well. 

They’re not looked after in any sort of real way. Why would I do that? When one of his commanding officers there in the camp points out if you do this, if you give them a choir, if you let them film this propaganda piece, then wives will know their husbands are still alive. Yeah. Pack that room full. And that is so, so big to me to like figure out how to tell people’s families that your sons and your husbands and your brothers are still alive when up to now all you have is pretty much radio silence from the US government because they don’t even know. Well, that’s a pretty big deal. You know what that reminds me of? 

Theresa: There it’s now on Netflix. But did you see the six triple eight? 

Angie: No, I think that’s in my to be watched. Okay. That’s the the new the postal gals, right? 

Theresa: Yes. Okay. But the concept is the mail wasn’t getting out for months and months and months to or from the front lines of World War Two. Right. So nobody knows that their loved ones are alive. And the guys at the front lines, they have no morale because they’re not getting, they think their family and friends have forgotten about them. 

Angie: Why wouldn’t like, why would it be? 

Theresa: Yeah, they’re out of sight out of mind. Yep. And so just having that hope. Yep. 

Angie: Absolutely. Yep. You’re, you’re not wrong. Um, I love this part after. So the independence says quote Roger Shields who served as deputy assistant secretary defense for the POW MIA affairs from 71 to 77 explains in a book that after Higdoll provided the names of the Pentagon. We told the North Vietnamese, you are responsible for the salvation and survival of these particular men, thereby putting the onus on the Vietnamese in a way that had never been done before. 

Wow. All because this guy fell off a ship, got a concussion and played dumb when they when he landed where he was. Coincidentally, the independent goes on to say that on the same day that Higdoll participated in his first post post release press conference. 

So he’s speaking from Bethesda, Maryland. Ho Chi Minh himself dies and this promotes a huge change of leadership that also coincides with more pressure on the communists from the Nixon administration regarding the treatment of POWs. It is worth noting that the final prisoners would eventually be released in 1973. 

Theresa: This is the only known to me incidents of weaponized and competence that I’m okay with. 

Angie: Right. I mean, he just nailed it. Higdoll in fact receives an honorable discharge from the Navy on July 1 of 1970. He remains with the inactive reserves until 72 at which point he had eventually achieved the rank of petty officer second class. He goes on to teach survival skills at the Navy SRE school for many years. One of the cool things that I read was that his parents, despite the fact that he was a POW for years, his parents kept his paychecks in a savings account for him. So when he got out, he was able to buy a little house in San Diego. Wow. 

Mm hmm. So he’s living in San Diego. He’s teaching survival skills at the Navy school. And although other, you know, early returns, they carry the stigma for accepting release before all the prisoners return home. Higdoll was always embraced by fellow POWs. And then Higdoll and Stratton would remain friends. And as I understand it, they are both still alive today. 

Theresa: No kidding. Mm hmm. 

Angie: I do have a couple of pictures, but I also have some added context here provided thanks to the National Park Service. During the longest war in American history, the Vietnam War, 766 Americans are known to have been prisoners of war. Of this number, 114 died during captivity. 

Unlike previous wars, the length of time as a POW was extensive for many, with some being imprisoned for more than seven years. Torture was common, and the Geneva Convention was not followed. As the North Vietnamese claimed, the Americans were political criminals, not prisoners of war. The documentary that I watched, actually, the North Vietnamese called them air pirates and war criminals. 

Geez. Now for a fun fact, Higdoll and his two brothers grew up, you know, they lived in Clark, South Dakota, working in the family business, which happened to be a hotel. The locals nicknamed the hotel the Higdoll Hilton as an ironic nod to the fact that it’s the afterword. I know. 

I think it was just some, I think it was before, like that’s just always what it was called. Okay. I just, I love that that is a thing that happened. 

And I do have a couple of pictures if you want to see them. I am here for it. Let me get my share screen going. Okay. Share my screen. So this first one is Higdoll. He’s got his broom and he’s sleeping. 

Theresa: She is showing me a black and white photo of a extremely emaciated man with a broom. And very high contrast to the point where it looks like this man’s practicing a huge smoky eye, which he is not. 

Angie: So in this particular photograph, I didn’t mention this earlier, but like I had said, the North Vietnamese were big on propaganda. And at one point during his stay, they moved everybody to something called the plantation, which was a former French plantation that had much bigger accommodations, was much cleaner, much nicer to sort of film this footage of the POWs looking like they’re having a great time. And they were like, I don’t know, they’re doing this for a day. 

That they’re treated well, they’re fed well, they’re looked after well. So this shot is from that particular endeavor. And once again, while here, he proceeds to undermine everything they do. They would ask him to act a certain way and he would pretend like he didn’t understand. Or he’d be overly dramatic. Or he’d be this or he’d be that. But everything he did, he did undermine what they were hoping to achieve. 

So they kind of, their goals were not met, to say the least. I love this for him. Here’s his early Navy photo and this photo on the right. Oh my God. It’s him the day after he’s returned home or within the week of him returning home. 

Theresa: So she’s showing a quintessential sailor photo. You know, like we’re talking a little white hat, the Navy blue shirt. And then the picture immediately next to it. Okay. So first off, Freshly Enlist dude is probably Buck 90. 

Theresa: It is lucky. Yeah. Right. 

Theresa: On the right side of him released, it’s black and white, but Bro has like a pencil neck and the sharpest cheekbones. He has easily lost 50, 60 pounds. 

Angie: At least, I mean, in the minimum. Now below this, you’ll see a photo of him and two others. That’s Alice and her husband Lieutenant Commander Straton. This is in 1973, just after Straton’s release. 

Theresa: So now him, you know, after a bit of time, he like, so which one is him? 

Angie: He’s the one on the far right with the glasses. 

Theresa: Interesting. Okay. So he has, he’s wearing these brown glasses that I don’t appreciate. They’re very reminiscent of the villain from the framed Roger Rabbit. Yeah, yeah, we kind of are. Yeah. And he’s wearing a white shirt, white tie, dark sports coat, and then stratton. He’s got his arm around Straton’s wife. 

Angie: Yes. So I think that’s his hand on her shoulder. Okay. Her and then Straton just upon his release. 

Theresa: So Straton looks like he coached football in high school. 

Angie: Yes. Straton looks like what you had imagined Mr. Rodgers to look like 30 years younger, I think. 

Theresa: Yeah, like he’s got the high and tight haircut. He’s got the physique that says he was a barrel-chested man in his younger years. Wife Alice is, she teaches homeroom. Yes, she does. She volunteers at the local church. 

Angie: Yep. She counts the offering every Sunday. Yeah. That’s exactly what she looks like. Whatever you’re imagining you’re right. 

Theresa: Goes to the hairdresser every Saturday. Gets a blowout. Yep. 

Angie: I’m not sure that he got to meet her before Straton was released, but I know that their families remain friends long after this. So I think that this, because this photo was taken right after Straton was released. So I think that he’s, it is odd that he does have his arm around her. I’m thinking that Straton has his arm around him, but we just can’t see that. Okay. 

Theresa: I mean, look, I’m, it could also just be we’re taking a photo, everybody get close. And then I’m reading a lot into 10 seconds of prep and photo, and then it goes into security and nobody remembers who or what. Yeah. 

Angie: But that’s, that’s the story of Doug Hagdill who fell off his ship and saved his POWs. What I find to be the most, I don’t know, impactful part of the story is that National Park Service says in their write-up that there were 766 Americans known to have been prisoner of war. He helped 256 of them survive. Holy crap. 

Theresa: Like that’s a huge chunk. 

Angie: Right? Like that’s a wild number and it’s wild to think that he sort of went with this whole stupid illiterate route for the sake of, I’m just trying to stay alive and it seems like my best bet. I mean, I did fall off my ship and have to tread water. 

So I’m just going to take this ridiculous posture and see how far it gets me. But at the end, it not only saved his life, but the lives of many, many more men. And I just love that. So there’s my guy. 

Theresa: Thank you. Because I think in passing, I’d read a memafied account, you know, like getting it down to the length of a tweet, but didn’t necessarily know the full story. Yeah. 

Angie: I saw, I saw the headline. A few weeks ago and I was like, I need to know more. He did what? 

Theresa: Pardon? So that’s that’s my guy. 

Angie: I love this. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for letting me take over. 

Theresa: I, yeah, no complaints, no regrets because seriously, you have given, you’ve given me a week off. I’m here for this. I’m now going to stew and I’m just going to apologize to everybody else who has old McDonald stuck in their head. 

Yeah, sorry about that. You’re not. And let’s be honest, you don’t need to be. But if, if you can’t wait to hear the story that maybe Angie sideline rate review, subscribe circle back next week. We’ve got equally unhinged narratives that we’re going to share. And yeah, come along for the ride. And on that note, goodbye. 

Theresa: Bye.