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Woowwee. This week is a crazy mashup of stories.

First off, Angie shares a Japanese festival called Nakizumo, where sumo wrestlers attempt to make babies cry, on purpose.

Theresa overcomes her feelings about this to share the story of Richard Sakakida, a nisei (a first-generation Japanese American) sent to spy on the Japanese in Manilla before the US’s entrance to WWII. She shares his capture, torture, and survival. It’s a lot.

These stories pair well with:

The Spaghetti Hoax
The Time the Japanese bombed Oregon during WWII

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast. The podcast where two people who organize their lives with open browser tabs and post-it notes come together to read history stories together that we’ve only recently learned or hope in the hell the other one has never heard it before. I’m host one, I’m Teresa, and that’s… 

Angie: I’m Angie, and I’m hoping one day we come together to tell the same story on the accident. 

Theresa: You know, and this is why I keep telling stories that feel like they’re just completely out of left field. That’s what makes it fun. 

Angie: I’m here for it. I think you go first today, yeah? 

Theresa: No. No, I will. Is it really me? I literally went first last time when I told you the story of Molly Williams. Hot dog. I know. 

Angie: This is going to sound so dumb, but I just don’t believe you. 

Theresa: You can look it up. I’ll sit here. 

Theresa: I’m just going to keep doing my needlework. You were right. Yeah, it’s not like my screen is open with the things. 

Angie: The thing after anything? I couldn’t get railroaded into going first. Can’t gaslight you into this one? 

Angie: No, not this time. 

Angie: Dang it. Okay, well… Okay. All right. Sorry. Sorry, I just blanked there for a second. 

Theresa: You were just so convinced you were going second. 

Angie: I was. I was so prepared to go second. I’m not prepared to go first. Okay, switching gears. 

Theresa: She will be indulged. 

Angie: Indeed. All right. I think I’m going to… I think I’m going to pronounce everything in my story right. Please bear with me if I don’t. And if you know how to pronounce the word, please share with me because there’s one that I’m a little 

Angie: like, Oh, 

Theresa: I’m going to work my mind off. Oh, I’m so excited. I’m so excited because every time I hear you say the word Tames, like the Tames River, I’m always like, are you saying it right? It feels wrong. 

Angie: It looks wrong. It sounds wrong. But I don’t want to say times either, although I feel like that’s closer to right. 

Theresa: And I think I just need to isolate every time you say that word, string it together and realize that you say it differently every single time. 

Angie: Every time. Because, yes, I do. Because here’s the deal. I think I’m just going on vibes alone with that word. There’s like a handful of words. I was actually just having this conversation with somebody recently where it’s like, you know, like when you read a fantasy novel and then you hear it for the first time, you’re like, that is not the character’s name. 

Theresa: No. No. Absolutely not. I really don’t even try to say their names. I just go, oh, that is the look and feel of the main male character. Yeah. 

Angie: Because are we sure? Like, that’s a letter that’s not normally in this word, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s vibes. It’s vibes alone. Okay. That’s what we’re working with. So my first source is a history hit article by Sarah Roller from November of 2020. 

It is about the Sensoji Temple. Okay. There is a fax.net, which I’m going to be honest seems a little sketchy. However, my story is so short and it’s a banger that I will take the sketchy sources because they at least had something to run with. Called 35 Facts about the Nakisumo Festival. Please tell me you are not familiar with this. Where is it? Well, so it takes place all over Japan, but the biggest one, like the one where it sort of started is at the Sensoji Temple in Tokyo. 

Theresa: Maybe. Off the top, it’s not ringing bells, but 

Angie: oh, I’m so excited to tell you the story then. Is this going to be the penis festival? There is actually no penises involved or syphilis in this story. 

Theresa: Sorry, I haven’t talked about syphilis in so long. 

Angie: I know. We’re going to have to talk about it, but we’re going to have to bring it up again. So sorry, Ryan, we let you down. In your time in Japan, did you ever visit the temple? Or did you ever get like the touristy tour of the area? 

Theresa: I mean, I would bum around all over Tokyo all the time. So if it’s the one in near Hadasukupark, yeah. 

Angie: Okay, so my understanding is that this Sensoji Temple is the oldest temple, like the oldest Buddhist temple in Tokyo. And this is the name going to need some help with. It is dedicated to Kanon Bostastu. They are the Bodihistavita of compassion or mercy. According to the history hit article, it is the world’s most visited spiritual site, which I thought was wild when you consider the wall in Jerusalem where on one side you have the wailing wall and then on the other side you have Mecca. So it’s like, oh, I’m going to have to do some numbers here on this one. Wait, yeah, I’m thinking of Mecca. 

Theresa: Isn’t Mecca in Mecca? 

Angie: Well, like, yeah, Mecca is in Mecca, right? But like when you think about Jerusalem as a whole, not so much Mecca being Mecca, but like when you think about Jerusalem, you have one half that’s like that cares for the Jewish community, you have one half that cares for the Muslim community, and they all sort of merge in this holy place that’s sacred to three religions, right? 

Right. So yeah, Mecca is in Mecca, Jerusalem, the wailing wall is in Jerusalem. But anyway, I would have thought one of those two places would have been the most visited spiritual site in the world. Apparently, it’s this one, and that’s pretty cool. It was built in 645 AD, which I think is freaking fantagulous that we actually know the date. The story goes that two fishermen, they pull a statue out of the sumi.gawa river in the early morning of March 18th of 628 AD. Like, I love Japanese note-taking. 

Theresa: We have no dates. No, they are really good. They like writing things down. 

Angie: I love that for us. Like, if this story would have come from the Western world, we would have been like, hmm, we kind of think it happened about a thousand years ago. Unclear? No, no, no. I mean, okay. 

Theresa: Like, maybe? If Hubs was in the room, he would interject and say, according to one of the free genealogy apps that I used in just doing things, at some point in the 10th century, my lineage peters out and ends with Scamander the River god. 

Angie: See? Great note-taking. Yeah. I’m still here for your deity of an ancestor, Scamander the River god. Your family lore is top notch. I do what I can. You know, it explains a lot actually. When you say that and you think about like the story of how we got here. 

Your chaos goodness explains a lot. So these two fishermen, they pull the statue out of the river. It’s to represent this deity. And then they, so then a temple gets built throughout it, right? Okay. So that image, that statue is not on display today, but it did stand in the same place since the temple’s construction in the 645 AD, four centuries. 

Theresa: Oh, and- So fast forward. When you walk into these temples, they have massive statues on the sides. 

Angie: That’s sort of what I expected. Yeah. I was thinking of Fuhou’s statue and how big it was, and it was just her like mausoleum. So I can only imagine what a deity’s statue would be like, you know? 

We’re going to fast forward a bit to the 12th century. These shoguns begin showing like big devotion to this temple. And then other prominent people, they start to follow suit and since soji just becomes more and more important to the people of Japan. In 1590, quote, the first Takugawa shogun, Liseyu, designated so- Sensoji as the temple where prayers of the shogunate would be offered. And his successors would do the same, and this leads to this continued popularity during this era. 

Like, it just gets bigger and bigger and more loved over time. Well, much of Tokyo is destroyed during the Second World War, so the current temple that we can go see today was, it actually dates from 1958. But the author of the article that I was reading says that Japanese culture places less emphasis on the use of entirely original materials and much more on the idea of replacing and restoration using traditional craftsmanship and materials. And I think that’s really special because when you think about, like, I’ve been in more than one social media conversation with somebody who was so ticked off that somebody remodeled the house of the Victorian era and they made it modern. And like, on the one hand, you need to keep some of its original charm, but on the other hand, it’s a living testament to the family that lives there. Right. So the idea of using these traditional craftsmanship trades and the traditional materials speaks to that, but also represents the generation that’s doing it. I think that’s really cool. 

Theresa: Kind of, again, my in-laws, they have a little 1950s bungalow and they’re trying to, you know, get it all. Many of the things period correct. These were the types of, you know. Hinges we would have had. These are the types of things we would have had. This is how the kitchen would have laid out. But they have a modern age back. Yup. You know. Why not? 

Angie: I love, I got in a conversation with someone once about a house that was probably built in 1900 and the new owners completely and lovingly remodeled this home, but they painted the exterior black and then added a modern deck with, like, the glass railing, you know. This house was stunning. 

And people were attacking this restore because how dare you take its original charm. And I was sitting there thinking, like, it’s gorgeous. I feel like if a Victorian person would have seen this house, they would have been like, I’ll take it. It’s painted black. You know, but it’s perfect. 

Theresa: You can’t beat everybody’s cup of tea, right? 

Angie: No. And it’s your house. 

Theresa: Yeah, I’m not going to like, put a survey out among the community at large. Hey, I’m going to change the color of my front door way in. Yeah. 

Angie: I’m considering painting the bathroom pink. Do you think that would be acceptable to your generational ideas? Anyway, for whatever reason, about 400 years ago, a new festival breaks out and that’s why I’m here today. 

Okay. So every year from at least late April to early May, this time represents the end of the Golden Week holiday. I’m not real familiar with that, but it sounds like a really fun time. 

Theresa: The entire country goes on spring break. And, oh, like, there’s no work. There’s no school. Like, I mean, I say there’s no work. Like, I didn’t work. None of the schools were operational. Like, I worked at like a commercial school, right? But none of the public educational schools were open either. Many companies take the week off. That sounds great. But what that means is that’s your week of vacation for that period of, you know, the quarter. And since everybody’s on spring break, travel rates are so much higher. 

Angie: And you’re probably like, are there like restaurants and things? Are they serving or? 

Theresa: Yeah, most of them. Yeah. Like, so all the service industries are still operational, but it’s just everything is so expensive and crowded. Okay. 

Angie: That makes sense. Okay. So this festival takes place towards the end of that and it often coincides with Children’s Day. Is that okay? Yeah. So at Shrine all over Japan, a Shinto priest opens each festival with rituals and prayer. And then two sumo wrestlers enter the ring, or what I just learned today as the dojo. The involvement of the sumo’s is both symbolic and practical. They are seen as protectors and will bless their young companions. Because entering the ring safe in the arms of the sumo wrestlers are babies. 

Theresa: I don’t think I’ve witnessed this. 

Angie: The goal is make the baby cry. The rules of the competition are simple. The first baby to cry wins. If both babies cry at the same time, the baby with the louder cry wins. 

Okay. So these wrestlers, they are snuggling up to their babies. They’re safe and sound in their arms. 

In fact, this quote is kind of my favorite part. Despite their intimidating appearance, sumo wrestlers handle the babies with great care and tenderness. Then either the referee or the wrestlers themselves, I think it depends on where, like what festival you go to as to who does what, but they begin to try to make the babies cry. And they start by saying, knocky, knocky, knocky, which I just mean to cry, cry, cry. They’ll employ making faces and jostling them about gently. 

And if that doesn’t work, someone will don an ony mask and hope that that will work. Oh yeah, that also happens in New Year’s. I suspected that. That probably happens more than once a year. I spent several hours of my life trying to determine why we would decide that making babies cry is festival worthy, because I feel like as a culture and globally, we spend so much more time trying to make them to stop crying. Well, there is a cultural belief that babies who have a big sturdy cry will grow up to be strong and healthy. In fact, in Japan, there is a proverb, and I hope I say this right, that says, naku-ko-wa-sou-ru-tatsu, which translates to crying babies grow fat. There is additionally a belief that crying babies are also believed to ward off evil spirits, so big cry means big blessings. But if you don’t cry, if you’re the baby, obviously, and you don’t cry, and perhaps you fall asleep in the sumo’s arms, that means you are already seen as sturdy and blessed. 

So like, you’re having a good day either way. Festivals, they feature ceremonies such as prayers for the baby’s well-being. Some include naku-sumo bouts, and the baby’s first quote, sumo stance, are held in some places. In some places, parents are also allowed to participate in the events. Some will beat drums for their babies to encourage growth, and they’ll receive salvatory handprints. Can you explain the handprints to me, because all I can see is getting the ori-kai hand from Lord of the Rings? I’m, and I think that’s not it. 

Theresa: Yeah, I don’t know what you’re trying to communicate, so I can’t elaborate on, because also remember, I said, I don’t think I’ve gone to this, probably because at the time I was like young 20s, and I was like, yeah, I don’t need to go to a baby thing. 

Angie: Yeah, I wasn’t sure if the salvatory handprints is like a cultural blessing, like, you know, when you go to Catholic priest and you get the holy water in your forehead sort of thing. 

Yeah, I don’t feel comfortable in speaking on it, because I don’t know. No worries. I was just curious. 

I’m going to follow up in my questions on that later. The festival is so popular that parents travel all over Japan, and in some places the children are like the, like at Sensoji, it’s such a popular festival that the parents pay to enter the competition, and the children are chosen by lottery. They will wear traditional outfits, or sumo aprons, and if you care, I have some really sweet pictures. 

Theresa: I know that’s fun. And I know, I know it’s just a long, long belt that wraps very creatively around all of the bits. 

Angie: No, let me see if I can find you on one of the pictures. Okay, fantastic. I will share my screen, because I just cannot get over how cute these are. Did it? Okay, I think it loaded. 

Theresa: Okay, so we are seeing a sumo wrestler. He is holding a, I would say four to six month old, who is little blue socks on, sucking his thumb, darting a little. Right. 

Angie: Now, often, so my understanding is the one like pretty continual thing across the festivals is it’s anywhere ranging from like infant to one year old, like you have to be under one to participate. Okay. 

Theresa: I got to say, please, here’s my 16 year old baby. 

Angie: I know, right? Here’s the meeting at the beginning of the match. So we have the two sumo wrestlers with the referee standing between them. Yep, and they’re both holding infants. 

I love this one. The sumo wrestler on our left looks like he is having the time of his life. And this is the traditional apron that they are mentioning in the… Oh, okay. 

A lot of the children are dressed up in traditional Japanese cultural garb. And in some places they also do things like baby racing, like a crawl race. And when I was telling my husband the story, he said, you just know that there’s a bookie involved in this. And I bet you there’s like generational like legends like, oh, I won the sumo baby contest. 

So you have to win too. And I have been laughing nonstop for over a week because I just wanted to share this so bad. And I am so glad that you gave me the ability to do so. So that’s the Japanese festival of making babies cry. That is hilarious. 

Theresa: And it feels hilarious to me that I didn’t know a single thing about it. 

Angie: I was literally like, oh, please, oh, please, oh, please don’t know. Please don’t know. The whole time. Because I think I would have been genuinely upset if you would have been like, actually, let me tell this whole story. 

Theresa: I mean, okay, so here’s the thing. I had spent the night drinking in Tokyo. 

Angie: As it turned out, I stumbled into one. Yeah. 

Theresa: What you don’t know. Here I am completely hungover and these babies are wailing. 

Angie: And I’ve got a toot about it. All right. 

Theresa: So I do have a story for you. And surprisingly, there is a theme. Oh, I love this for me. 

Angie: Is it crying babies or sumo wrestlers? Neither. Okay. Okay. 

Theresa: I’m going to tell you the story of Richard Sakakira. 

Angie: Okay. I can’t say I know the name. You won’t. 

Theresa: Okay. My sources are the intelligence knowledge network of the army, Lieutenant Colonel Richard M. Sakakiro. U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force retired. Okay. America’s secret army by Ian Sawyer and Douglas Bodding, as shared in the congressional record, July 3rd or January 30th, 1996. And the book America Sutra by Duncan Reukin Williams. Oh, that’s a name. All right. 

Angie: Are you ready? I am so ready. At some point, I’m hoping to get to you. Oh, no, I know this guy’s name. No, you won’t. 

Theresa: You really won’t. I honestly like, yeah, there’s Richard Sakakira. He’s born November 19th in the year 1920 in Maui. Okay. Big fan. Already a big fan. Right. So things are looking great. His parents had immigrated from Hiroshima in around 1900. Okay. Now, most Americans would describe him as Japanese American, but the Japanese had a very special word for expatriates like him. He’s Nisei, which meant that he’s literally translates like second generation, but it just means first born abroad. Okay. So the first that leave is Issei. The second or the first born is Nisei and goes on from there. 

Okay. So, what’s his name? He graduated from McKinley High School and Hongwajii Japanese Language School in 1939. So he’s an American citizen in a Japanese family. So this gives him a very unique position as being a man of two cultures in two very different languages. Yeah. Let me tell you. 

Angie: You want to get into language right now, but I feel like, I feel like Japanese American speaks way more sense than English or Spanish. 

Theresa: Let me know which class you’re taking. I can almost guarantee you’re not talking about, you know, you’re having complaints get Spanish because that’s what you’re taking. But anyhow, it’s serious complaints. It’s nine months before the attack on Pearl Harbor and there is another Nisei named Arthur Kamori and they’re both sworn in to the Counterintelligence Court as agents in Hawaii with the rank of sergeant. They were the first Japanese Americans to ever be recruited into the CIC and they’re among the handful of their detachment that will end up surviving the war against Japan. 

Angie: Okay. That’s not heavy at all. A little foreshadowing there. 

Theresa: Now, wait, there’s a war? Well, yeah. So America hadn’t entered in yet. 

Angie: You know, we were playing it cool and claiming to be neutral with a very American accent. What? Sounded like Texas. 

Theresa: Yeah. Got it. Uh-huh. So they end up just basically getting intensive training courses in code, ciphers and recognition of prime targets, but they had been given no formal intelligence training. 

Angie: That seems not helpful. 

Theresa: I mean, it depends on what you’re going to do. So they’re prepared to embark on the secret mission. The nature of which they’re told it’s going to come to them later. We’ll tell you later. To need to know. 

Angie: Oh, you should need to know. You don’t need to know. Okay. Got it. 

Theresa: I’m great with those. Now, they’re told their destination is Manila, the capital city of the Philippines, and they’re warned that their assignment would certainly be the source of inconvenience and probable danger. Well. And this, they’re to say nothing except or to their immediate families. And in Sakakita’s case, it’s just his widowed mom. Hmm. 

Okay. So April 7th, 1941, Sergeant Sakakita and author Arthur Kumori leave for Manila. They’re disguised as civilians and Sakakita quickly makes connections with many key Japanese businessmen. Now, in Manila, they’re met by the commanding officer of the CIC department in the Philippines, and they’re briefed for the first time about the nature of their mission. And this is kind of where the magnitude of what they’re supposed to do because they’re fresh high school graduates. These are young boys. 

Angie: Like, yeah, you know what? In my mind, you told me he graduated from high school and I saw him as 40. 

Theresa: You know what you say that? But in one of the books that I read about on him, his mom signed his enlistment paperwork because I guess I, you know, he wasn’t 18 yet. But because she didn’t know how to write in English, she just signed her name in the next. 

Okay. So I think she was fully aware of what was happening. I got that impression, but it was still like, you know, there is that language barrier. Right. So they get there, they realize what they’re supposed to do. They’re supposed to counter-invest or counterintelligence investigations on the entire Japanese community in Manila, which is about 2,000 people. 

Angie: And they’re only sending them two guys to do this? Yes. 

Theresa: I feel like that’s not enough. They have to just embed as deep as possible and really try to figure out who is the threat to national security and get that intel out. Now, their cover story is that they claim they’re crew members of a freighter that had jumped ship after a tiring life at sea. 

Now, Komori, he enhances the story by adding that he’s also a draft dodger and given the state of affairs, this really made him get along real nice and tight with the pro-emperor sons of Japan. Love this. Okay. This works. Yeah. They’re like, heck yeah, brother. Now, Sakakita, he’s instructed to register at the small hotel called the Nishikawa and Komori checks into the Toyo Hotel. 

Both of these are very Japanese names. They have their KS officers that they’re in contact with, Major Raymond and Agent Greenfield D. Driscoe, and they’re the only two members of the CIC department. Speaking of Texas. Yeah. Doesn’t that just Driscoe? 

Angie: Like, the whole thing is. He’s got a drawl. That man’s huge hat. He spit tobacco once or twice. 

Theresa: At least once. Now, it’s Driscoe and Raymond who are the only ones that know that they’re Nisei agents. And in order to stay in contact, they’re given keys to a mailbox in the central post office in Manila under the name Sixtho Borgia, which sounds so spy-like. It’s not John Smith. 

Angie: Borgia seems a unique name to go with here in Manila. Yeah, that’s a choice. 

Theresa: Bold, I’ll say. They’re told to check the box twice daily for instructions about rendezvous places. Raymond and Driscoe would then pick them up at prearranged spots and then drive them to a roundabout route to the military intelligence station in Fort San Diego where they would submit the report in safety and review new briefings. For Raymond Major, a longtime agent, Sakakira and Kumori developed tremendous admiration and affection. 

Quote, he gradually instilled in us techniques from subtle investigations and subterfuges and the best traditions of the CIC. Kumori recalled later. Yeah, later. Later because these kids had had less than a month of training involving boot camp before they’re sent to Manila. 

Angie: But typical boot camp is six to eight weeks. These are things. Okay, carry on then. 

Theresa: So basically everything that they were able to learn from him would help them later on. Now, in the months preceding the outbreak of war, the outbreak of war against the U.S. and Japan, because war is indeed happening. Well, it is active in specific theaters. I don’t think in Asia yet. 

Okay. The two young and apprehensive Nisei began the delicate task of burrowing into the warren of the main Japanese community in the Philippines. Sakakira, he poses as a sales representative of SIRS Robuck and he ended up having learned the sales brochures by heart and spent his evenings in the Japanese club where he assiduously ingratiated himself with the Japanese businessmen who frequented the hotbed of Nippon Orchid Orthdoxie. Now, wow, the same source is the one who said that they’re ship jumpers and then said that he is a SIRS Robuck salesman. I’m confused by that. 

Angie: Because I don’t think you would… You have to tell a different story for each group, right? I assume that’s how you’re found out. I would think, but in this case, maybe like this is what we just said to get into the community and now we’re dealing with like higher ups or the different people that we need to actually be dealing with, so this is our story. Okay. Maybe I was originally a SIRS Robuck guy and then I got on the ship and then I jumped the ship. Possibly. I’ll have to dig deeper. 

Theresa: So as all this is going on, Sakakira, he finds employment as a clerk at the Nishikawa Hotel and he’s doing it. He’s getting room and board out of the deal, but the job itself is an incredible opportunity because he gets to inspect the passports and credentials of the Japanese visitors coming to Madilla. Nice. 

Angie: He was thinking through that one. 

Theresa: Yeah. So with the coming war, he ends up getting a ton of information and it takes up some momentum. Now the U.S. has required all Japanese nationals to file declarations of their bank accounts and assets. Many of them come to see Sakakira to get his help in filling out these forms. And in this way, he’s able to interview a considerable portion of the community in the Philippine capital and obtain gobs of info about what did or didn’t go on the forms. And then he’s also learning about the military background of these people and all of it gets passed on to military intelligence. 

Angie: Genius move on his part. Oh, it’s just like, well done. Yeah. I love you on my team. Yeah. 

Theresa: For an 18-year-old boy, he ain’t doing too bad. No, he knows what’s up. Now he, of course, fails to tell anybody he’s an American citizen. Oh, right. Okay. And since everybody who looks at him and kind of talks to them, to him or to them, he’s completely Japanese. And he’s treated by the hostile Filipino community. 

Angie: Okay, this makes sense. And he’s just kind of putting up with it because we need this cover. Right. Yeah. Okay. 

Theresa: So after a bit of time, he ends up finding himself in physical danger and he has to start to kind of look out for his own survival. Then that’s about the time that the Manila radio station announces that all aliens should report to their local police station for internment. Hmm. Now this is for your safety, of course. 

Yeah. And Manila was, I think at this point, it was technically protected, owned, cared for by the Americans. But for him to hold this pretense of being Japanese, he decides that he’s going to be happy to oblige. So him along with three other Japanese go and they’re flung in the back of an open police trunk and driven through the narrow streets of Manila where crowds of angry, anti-Japanese Filipinos aimed blows and missiles at them so that they were bruised, bloody and exhausted by the time that they reached the sanctuary of the Japanese Club, which was now an internment center for the Japanese. German and Italian aliens. 

Angie: Okay. Didn’t see any of those words coming in that order. 

Theresa: No. I didn’t realize that there would be Germans or Italians in Manila. 

Angie: I mean, for, like, business, that makes sense, but not for any other reason. So it’s weird that they would end up, like, there would be enough of them to put them in a right tournament and then notate them. Yeah. 

Theresa: Like, there’s literally only Hans. Like, why say Germans? It’s just Hans. 

Angie: It’s one. It’s one. His name is Hans. Yeah. And now all I can think of is, big, like, you blow out? 

Theresa: Wrong nationality, but yes, I’m here for it. 

Angie: Yeah. Well, I don’t know. The minute you said that, that was the face that I got. And I was like, I know I actually flowed Swedish, but whatever. 

Theresa: Norwegian. I believe. I believe Norwegian. 

Angie: I thought that her story took, anyway, it doesn’t matter. 

Theresa: It’s a real thing. Okay. So now a few days later, he gets sent into Manila City to obtain food for the children in the center. And while he’s there, he takes this opportunity to return to his hotel, pack up his belongings, and he’s barely there to pack his bags when three Filipino Secret Service agents blow in and they arrest him on suspicion of being a Japanese spy. 

Because he was so good at his cover and they throw him into the Billy Bid prison where like his fellow agent, Kumori, he languished in hope of rescue by his CIC commander, Major Raymond, who is in town and who should have the capacity to come in and swoop him up. 

Angie: My leg is the vibe that he does not. 

Theresa: Well, just maintain. Oh, I’ll wait. Yeah. Just, you know, hold that thought. So everything is going fantastically bad. And it’s at this point that the first phase of the plans of the military conquest of the Far East. the Japanese have launched a simultaneous assault on Hong Kong, Malaya, and the Philippines. So this is on the same day of the attack on Pearl Harbor, over half of the bombers of the American Air Force in the Far Eastern Theater, and a third of the fighters were destroyed in Japanese air tax on American air bases like Clark Field in the Philippines, and the Naval Base in Manila Bay, they’re just wiped off the map. Good. And I literally only heard about Pearl Harbor. I didn’t realize that this was a concerted effort. 

Angie: It is interesting that when we are taught Pearl Harbor and we think about Pearl Harbor, all we think is Pearl Harbor. 

Theresa: And not that it was just one of the louder? Yeah. 

Angie: That is wild. You think they would have told everybody the whole thing? 

Theresa: Well, yeah, I don’t know. Maybe it just wasn’t as exciting to be bombed on American soil. 

Angie: Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely, yeah. Okay. 

Theresa: But basically they have no naval support or air support, and the commander of the Filipino and American forces in the Philippines, General Douglas MacArthur, whom we’ve heard about, we’ll hear about a lot more in this story, he had no real prospect of holding Manila. He’s like, look, this is a foregone conclusion. We’ve rolled a nat too. 

Angie: Orto. Yeah. I believe as my son says, you’re cooked. 

Theresa: Yes. So this is not good. The Japanese begin landing ground forces, and that’s when MacArthur orders withdrawal southward to the natural stronghold of the Baton Peninsula and the island fortress of Corregidor. And that’s where he would hold out as best as he could till relief from Hawaii would arrive, and that might take up to six months time. 

Oh, so… Meanwhile, Sakakita and Kamori, they get swept up in the turmoil of those desperate days as, you know, before the Japanese really enter into Manila. And that’s where events start to really move swiftly. First, they get snatched up by the prison by Agent Driscoll. 

So, yay. Then on Christmas Eve, they’re bundled onto a tiny steamer bound for Baton, Cool Beans. Then they get secreted to Corregidor, that tiny overgrown island fortress on the very tip. It’s known as the Rock. Oh, welcome to the Rock. Yep. And MacArthur has established his headquarters there after his retreat, and here Sakakita was assigned as General MacArthur’s personal interpreter and translator. 

Angie: Okay. So… That’s kind of the thing. 

Theresa: There’s a lot of Japanese speaking going on. There’s a lot of documents to process, and the general is going to need somebody, and he’s only got two options. I’ll take them. Now, there’s such a desperate general need for Japanese linguists that both Sakakita and Kumori were sent to work near the front lines in Baton in alternating three-day shifts so that one was on the Rock and the other would be in Baton until they changed places. Oh, okay. Which makes sense. Once he gets summoned back to Army headquarters to broadcast a surrender appeal in Japanese to die-hard Japanese troops fighting in this last-ditch battle, they’re on… The Japanese haven’t trenched themselves, and they basically get him to really call out and be like, hey, you know, in perfect Japanese, very formal, very flowery language, like, you know, we would love it if you would surrender. 

If you do, we will be very kind. I had it in my nose. I took it out because I was trying to streamline things. And that’s when a Japanese voice in English says, why aren’t you shooting? Did you idiots run out of ammo? 

I was not prepared. You’re welcome. I’ll wait for you to get further into your glass before I say it to really try to see if I can get you to do a spit take. Mm-hmm. 

Angie: So they respond with fire, and Sakahito realized that this isn’t going well for him. Now, he’s not popular with the American and Filipino frontline troops because they realize that wherever he goes, he gets a lot of fire from the enraged Japanese people. Oh, okay. 

Theresa: They’re like, would you go away? You are just a magnet for bullets, and we don’t… we want to go home. Off with you now. Yep. So this next sentence, I feel, goes without saying, the rock was not a nice place to be. What? 

I… you know, it’s now raked daily from dusk to dawn by Japanese air and artillery bombardment so that the garrison is forced to seek permanent shelter in the tunnel system that bore deep into the hills. Mm. 

Angie: So doesn’t it smell good either? No. 

Theresa: And they’re existing on half rations. Ew. Okay. And under the hail of Japanese high explosives, the two Nisei worked 16 to 20 hour days helping to decipher Japanese signal codes and monitoring Japanese Air Force communications. Ooh, that’s a long day. That is. And I can only imagine that full rations and sleep would be helpful. 

I mean, typically, right? Now, as all this is going on, they’re able to translate and warn American targets on the island when raids are coming because they’re monitoring all the channels. They later get joined by another Hawaiian born Nisei named Clarence Yamagata, and he’s a civilian who practiced lawn manila and he’d acted as a part-time legal advisor to the Japanese consulate until the American withdraw from the city. So now there’s three Japanese men, you know, all huddled up for this. By now it’s the beginning of April, so it’s about a year that they’ve been in manila. 

And it’s clear that the end is really on the horizon. After three months of bitter and intensive combat, malnutrition and disease, the men are exhausted. By now, their average daily food intake is down to about 800 calories per man. That is insane. Isn’t it? 

Angie: They had to weigh, what, 100 pounds? You would think. 

Theresa: And here’s another line that’s awful. 90% of the Filipino army had no shoes. What? I don’t know what happened to their shoes, but they wore through them. They ate them. I don’t know. You tell me. 

Angie: Any number of things? Right. You would think, though, that in a case like this, arming your army with, you know, a kutrum on, like, shoes. 

Theresa: Shoes would probably be preferable because shoes and bullets, they’d be helpful. Yeah. So there’s that. And hope of relief had faded and most are resigned to the prospect of imminent surrender to this overwhelming enemy. There’s few now who could escape the tragic fate that’s about to take them. What they don’t realize is the baton death march is coming. 

Angie: Okay. Allow me to click my eyebrows from the top of my head. 

Theresa: You’re welcome. I’ll give you a second for that. And that’s when 76,000 shattered American and Filipino survivors were led north into captivity on a notorious death march that kills over half of their number. And many of Sakakita’s CIC comrades were a part of this march. 

Hmm. Sakakita, he ends up, I think. I can’t remember. I couldn’t figure out if he was a part of a different march or in that march as well, but he does survive that. 

Now, General MacArthur, he expresses some deep concern over Kumori and Sakakita because the Japanese refused to recognize the right of anyone of Japanese blood to bear loyalty to another country. That’s so interesting. Mm hmm. So they’re doubly going to treat these two Nisei with greater harshness and captivity than they would the Caucasian comrades, especially if they discovered that the Nisei in question were undercover agents from the American military intelligence community. Of course. But they weren’t, of course. They weren’t. Were not I. 

Angie: No, not I. I don’t know what is America. 

Theresa: Yeah, they just eat hamburgers. I don’t I don’t subscribe. 

Angie: I like that. I don’t even know what there is. Yeah, so much fish. 

Theresa: Oh, I love fish. I’m here for it. But because of this, General MacArthur orders Kumori and Sakakita to leave the Philippines. He’s got this kind of makeshift evacuation, so till a known as what is he refers to as the bamboo fleet. And this presented Sakakita with the most difficult and monumental decision of his life. 

And it marked his transition from an agent of ability to a man of heroic stature and a master spy. Okay, you ready for that? If all of this was build up. This is where the story takes off. 

Angie: That is insane because at any point I was expecting it to say and then he got kind of a scurvy. And hopefully I told him and wrote about this. 

Theresa: Oh, okay. It’s not scurvy. It’s not scurvy. Oh, it’s this list. No, I don’t have that. I’m trying. I couldn’t leave it in. It’s still, yeah, I think about this is still less than a year since he enlisted in the army. He’s a kid in many respects, like his frontal lobe does not fully connect. And the Japanese have taken the time and we got Arthur evacuating the area. Now, Sakakita, he contends that the evacuation plans as they stood involved leaving Yamagata behind to face his prisoner of the Japanese. And to him, this is unbearable because Yamagata had open openly occupied a position of trust among the Japanese and then voluntarily come over to the American side. 

Okay. Now, clearly he’s going to be marked for special treatment by his captors. Sakakita is also aware that Yamagata has a wife and child living in Japan. So he’s got even more pressure that can be applied to him by the Japanese. 

And Sakakita, he’s like, I’ve never worked openly for the Japanese. I don’t have a wife or family. So I, I don’t know if that he means children because I was like, your mom’s still around. But he felt it was only right that Yamagata should take his place on the right to freedom. And he takes his proposal. He runs it to his commanding officer who then forwards it to General Rainwright, who then forwards it to General MacArthur, who agreed. And so, okay. Yeah, basically their checks in place. Yeah, everyone agrees. Sakakita, you’re just going to have to do the best you can with Japanese occupation. Godspeed. Good luck to you. 

Angie: When that’s in prayers. Yeah. 

Angie: And yeah. 

Theresa: When the American defenders of Korkity or are herded into captivity on the death march, many are left dead or dying. Some of those who survived the grimoire deal are given to endure a grimmer task in the hands of the Japanese military. In the hands of the Japanese military police, the dreaded Kimpei Thai. 

Angie: Okay, listen, I don’t know what Kimpei Thai means, but the name alone said with dreaded is, is giving a really big like, I’m interested. You got me. Did you ever see Man in High Castle? We started it, but I think we only watched maybe the first season or maybe like the first five episodes. 

Theresa: Okay, so I get the gist. They have the Kimpei Thai there. And yeah, that’s that I’m drawing on that when I when I think of this anyhow. So Sakakita, he’s taken to one of those with whom the Kimpei Thai took a special interest. He didn’t. Okay, I guess this is the truth. He didn’t take part in the death march, but was kept on Korgador for six months as the only American left on the tragic rock. 

Angie: And he’d originally I think that would be worse than being on the death march, being the only one left. 

Theresa: Yeah, being the literal whipping boy stuck behind. Yeah. Now he’d come to the Japanese military on the very first day of surrender when he’d accompanied General Rain White to baton to act as interpreter for the surrender force. And from that day, his life followed a steep decline into hell. He told the Japanese that he’d been taken by the Americans from an internment camp and made to work for them under duress. 

But the Japanese didn’t believe his cover story and produced several liberated Japanese prisoners of war who testified that Sakakita had worked for the United States Army as an interrogator on a completely voluntary basis. He was that is unfortunate. Yeah. 

That is one of those big bummers where if it had just been Komori who had done all of that, he’d have gotten away scot-free here. Yeah. Yeah. So he’s kept on one side of the tunnel system all by his little lonesome. And he’s interrogated over a period of several months and he did not cooperate at all. 

And the interrogation grew more and more severe. Cool. Sakakita is tortured often severely and he’s burned all over his body with a lighted cigarette. Torture. It’s literal torture. 

In the book, American Sutra, they include a quote from him on what he experienced. I did not include it and you’re welcome. I thank you. 

You’re welcome. Now, sometimes he gets beaten as well. And other times he’s slung with his back over a wooden beam, his feet dangling free from the floor. He gets water pumped into his stomach and then gets jumped on by his guards. 

Angie: And that doesn’t kill him after the first time? No, no. But I would have rather taken the death trail. Yeah, that sounds delightful in this comparison. 

Theresa: He said it’s his Buddhist upbringing that made him turn inward for inner strength to counter the pain that he believed had already reached an almost unbearable level. He goes on to say, fortunately, my rebelliousness and Buddhist faith held me in good stead. 

Angie: Good for him because I’m angry for him. Right? 

Theresa: So he holds on to his original story and never so much as breathed a hint that he is an agent of enemy intelligence. I mean, might save his life later. He endured nearly a year of torture. 

Angie: Okay. I think he might save his life later. I’m just going to be hopeful that we don’t end up… 

Theresa: Yeah. They’re unable to break the stray or… Nope. They’re unable to break Sakakita. And the judge advocate general of the Japanese 14th Army’s headquarters decides to use him as an interpreter because everybody else does. And in the process of doing this, he sneaks food to U.S. prisoners of war. 

Yes. This guy, he just… He is always doing the most, every chance he can. At various times, the Japanese try to trap him into admission that he was serving as a member in the Army. One day, one of them threw a .45 pistol at him and told him to clean it just to see how he handled it. He realizes that if he were to disassemble this weapon properly, it would demonstrate the experience that he clearly has. So he ends up just kind of wiping it with an oily rag and then handing it back. 

Angie: Oh, weaponized incompetence. Yeah. 

Theresa: We’re such good fans. We definitely are. Now, he ends up making a daring escape, which I had to include. He ends up connecting with the wife of a guerrilla leader. And when translating for her as she meets his captors, he also does this thing where he forges several documents to help her because the Japanese, while they write everything down, they weren’t the best at keeping all of their stuff picked up. 

So he would just, you know, forge some papers here and there at a stand, presto change-o. Oh, it’s good. Bob’s your uncle. But okay. So back to his escape plan. It’s simple. All it required was him and a small group of guerrillas disguised as Japanese officers to overcome the prison guards and release the inmates. 

There’s three components. The first that the guerrilla, Tupas himself would somehow wrangle himself a job in the prison’s electoral department so that at the appropriate moment he’d be in position to short-circuit all the electoral facilities in the prison. Brilliant. Yep. Okay. 

Second part of this, the guerrillas should keep a meticulous watch so they can determine the precise movements and the timekeeping of the prison guards, which, yeah, that’s the part of everybody’s plan. Mm-hmm. It should be if it’s not. Right. And then the third, that they should somehow get ahold of five or six Japanese officers’ uniform, preferably without knife holes in the backs of the tunics. 

Angie: Oh. That visual implies it’s happened more than once. 

Theresa: Or that if you’re going to do it, make sure you just go somewhere else. Just poke them elsewhere. Yeah. 

Angie: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Theresa: They end up doing just this. And since he’s the only ethnic Japanese and linguist in the group, he marches at the head and as they approach the main gate of the prison, it’s him who addresses the soldiers’ guards at the prison’s interests. He barks at these guards with these guttural commands, which compelled their confidence and respect, thinking that the guerrillas were officers from the Japanese garrison making their nightly security inspection of the prison, which the guards had already established took place at the time they were there. 

The guards bowed low in respect and looked at firmly at the ground at the feet, and that’s when Sakakita and his comrades tapped each one on the back of the head with the butt of their gun. 

Angie: I love that for him. It was just so picture perfect. 

Theresa: Mm-hmm. Truly. He sneaks back into the prison afterwards and watches the hysteria about the guerrillas escaping. 

Angie: Now, I’m just kidding. It’s always easier to get into the prison than out, so he… I’m imagining like we got him once, but he’s left. 

Theresa: I’m going to go back. I just want to watch. Well, okay, so it’s more than just because he’s there for the show. He really… He is such a patriot that he is sneaking out, continuing to sneak out, this vital intelligence that he can get his hands on because they’re not keeping it locked up. 

Angie: They’re just leaving it out willy-nilly. 

Theresa: Yeah, and so he’s just like, oh, that, that, that. Okay, putting that in my… Hey, Mrs. Guerrilla’s wife, what coincidence. Your husband’s not here. Would you take the slip of paper out for me kind of deal? I mean, it makes sense. Yep. Now, it’s early June, 1945. 

He escapes into the mountains, and a week later, he joins up with a small band of guerrillas in the vicinity of Farm Shul. I probably said that. A very English name. Yeah, I mean, it’s Farm, F-A-R-M-C-H… Nope, S-C-H-O-L. I think it’s Shul. 

Okay. And it’s 10 days later, they come under heavy Japanese shelling, and that’s when Sakakita gets so badly wounded that he is left behind so that the guerrillas could make a good escape. And it’s now that he’s on his own, so he has to kind of make it out. He’s got tons of shrapnel in his body, which is what made the guerrillas need to leave him. He ends up cutting it all out of his body by himself. 

Nope, not a chance. The wounds start to get a little gangrenous, and so he has to find the right herbs, pack his wounds to try to deal with that. Ew. 

Angie: Okay, okay, yeah. It’s cool. It’s cool. I’m picturing packing like gangrene on his thigh. Yeah, I don’t know where it was. I didn’t… Well, I’m assuming it was in more than one place. Possibly. 

Theresa: Now, he’s in the remotest regions of these jungles, and he’s having a real rough go, because this jungle, while lush, basically there’s nothing to eat but grass and wild fruit. 

Angie: Okay. I mean, is the fruit good fruit? Like, are we getting pineapples, or in passion fruit, in dragon fruit, or is it like just a variety of one tree? 

Theresa: I mean, I’m just seeing wild fruits. I didn’t go… I mean, I’m sure that there’s tropical fruits that aren’t going to be at our safe way. That’s weird. 

Angie: But I’m a Californian, and we get strawberries year round, so… 

Theresa: Yeah, but they’re going to have some real interesting-looking fruits that you’re going to be like, that’s a what? And be like, I’ll eat it. Yeah. 

Angie: Yeah, I exchanged that in Hawaii with some of the fruits there that I was like, no, what is this? And then I ate it, and I was like, yeah, I ate it again. Yeah. 

Theresa: Yeah. It looks like it came off of a halo game. Yes! 

Angie: Oh my gosh, yes. I don’t know what it’s called, but we ate the one that’s quote-unquote, putting inside. Like, that’s what, as everybody told us it was like. It was whatever. It wasn’t great, but it looked like halo. Okay. Yeah. 

Theresa: Anyhow, so he’s got some fun tropical cloud bursts, because this is now the rainy season, and hordes of tropical insects that are just coating his body and making his life miserable. For months, he endured semi-starvation and the ravages of malaria, dysentery, and berry-berry. What is berry-berry? 

Berry-berry is, I was like, oh, I kind of know what it is, and so I didn’t go further than that. It is a B1 deficiency that can cause a range of neurological and cardiovascular symptoms. So you have peripheral neuropathy, so I think numbness, tingling, muscle wasting, foot drop. 

If it’s wet berry-berry, you have heart failure, swelling in the leg, shortness of breath. It sounds fabulous, truly. So it’s like a great day at the spa. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

Okay. So by this point, his hair and beard had grown long, wild, because it’s been months. He has been as unkempt as it can be. He’s covered in sores and scratches. His voice has grown weak and feeble, and it said his eyes burned fever-bright and his clothes hung in tatters. He’s looking great. 

Angie: Well, he was already so skinny to begin with, so I’m just imagining. Because of the lack of rash. Yeah. Right, yeah. Yeah, okay. 

Theresa: He has no way of knowing what’s happened in the outside world. He’s got no way to know that the war is over, that the Philippines has been liberated. He has no clue about the bombing of Hiroshima and Naksaki. Oblivious to American landings in Japan, and the Japanese surrendered to MacArthur on board the battleship Missouri. 

Angie: Wow. You’d think somebody would try to tell him, but he’s on his own, so what are you going to do? 

Theresa: He did realize that he didn’t see more P-35 American fighter bomber planes coming overhead and dropping napalm. He noticed a lack of that. And there seemed to be a lot of trigger-happy Filipinos around, but he tries to avoid them. As you do. Yeah. So by this point, World War II had been over for weeks when Sakakita decided his condition was desperate enough to reach out for help. So he starts finding him close to the Ossing River, and he starts to follow it downstream. He’s hoping it’ll take him to sea, and then he can kind of figure things out. But he’s making some really slow progress, and intermittently he would black out. And then one day he sees movement ahead, the group of soldiers coming up the hill. And he gets as close as he can without, you know, really panicking, you know, because he’s trying to be brave, but it’s been rough. And he sees soldiers carrying equipment, and they wore helmets and uniforms, which didn’t quite make sense. It said that they seemed strange to him. They’re not Japanese. They don’t seem to be American. And his first thought is, God, now they’ve got Germans out here. 

Angie: Okay. I mean, I wondered when that phrase like that was ever going to start when we did the Harlem Hellfighters, and the Germans were like, oh, no, it’s them. Yeah. So I wondered if at any point the tables were turned. They were. Yeah. 

Theresa: He ends up getting closer and with an earshot, and he could hear little bits of the conversation, and he realizes, oh my gosh, they are American. And that’s when he realizes, oh, I should not come out of a peer or out and show myself because I look like a wild man. I look like a Japanese wild man. 

Angie: And I’m the problem. Yeah. 

Theresa: And so eventually he kind of throws caution to the wind and he starts madly waving his arms and yelling loudly, saying, don’t shoot. I’m American. Can’t you see an American? 

Wow. Now, at first, they don’t believe him. And it took some time to connect with MacArthur’s men to connect the dots because he has his code name. He knows his military numbers. Like he can. Right. You know, if you have the right people in line, you can back up the problem of his lineage. 

Angie: The providence makes the most sense. Anyway, delete that. I can’t remember what I was thinking for. 

Theresa: I will not. I’m keeping that. But once they’re able to connect to his, he gets this incredible welcome because he is the lone survivor and they prepare this incredible feast in his honor. There’s fried chicken, beer, white bread, fresh butter, like white bread and fresh butter are the things that cracked me up the most. 

Angie: Listen, when you’re hungry, white bread and fresh butter is delicious. 

Theresa: And having lived on nothing but herbs and grasses for months, this proved too rich for him. And it took him a week to recover from the most memorable binge he’s ever had on butter and white bread. 

Angie: Yeah. So you said that you mentioned beer too, right? 

Theresa: Yeah. Oh, plenty of beer. I mean, I’d have taken a bath and beer if I were him. Yeah. 

Angie: That’s really good for the skin or something. 

Theresa: Hair. Yeah. So he’s hospitalized for a week and then he sent Manila for debriefing. And his story is so extraordinary that he found people needed a lot of convincing that he hadn’t been a collaborator with the Japanese, which I get, you know. 

Yeah. But Christmas 1945, he gets sent home to Hawaii for two weeks leave at which time he spent one of those weeks in the hospital’s malaria and a high white blood. A high white. A high. That’s a hard one. High blood cell count. Those two words, side by side. 

Angie: High white blood cell. Yeah, you can’t say it without being really deliberate. Yeah. Okay. 

Theresa: So after, you know, the week in a hospital in Hawaii and then a week on the beach, he returns back to Manila, which is the last place I’d want to be. 

Same. And it’s there he’s assigned to the war crime investigation team, locating and identifying the guilty parties that aided the Japanese. Oh, and he’s aided by the Japanese predilection for keeping records and diaries. 

Angie: Oh, I love that we love to keep records. 

Theresa: So when you said that, I was like, I’ve got a tie in for you. 

Angie: Well, that happens in around about a white boy. Yeah. 

Theresa: So after the war, okay. During these work harm investigations, he ends up testifying against his captors. And he forgives them offering them cigarettes and candy. Hmm. And says that it was his Buddhist faith that gave him the ability to forgive. 

Angie: Sometimes that’s what you need to you need to you need to offer forgiveness so that you can move on to, you know, yeah. Yeah. 

Theresa: 1948 he transferred to the office of strategic intelligence, the OSI and newly established US Air Force as an OSI or OSI officer. And from here he goes to Japan to help organize all law enforcement agencies efforts to stop the black market activities in Tokyo. And he retires from the Air Force in 1975 as a Lieutenant Colonel. Wow. He, wow. Because of the sensitivity of his missions, he did not receive recognition for his dedication and service until 1996. 

Angie: I was going to ask you, do we ever, do we ever hear about him like in the news media sort of thing as far as getting any sort of phone for his lifetime of service? 

Theresa: No, we really don’t because that when he’s awarded the Purple Heart, it’s awarded posthumously. Hmm. Just checks. In 1999, he gets the Distinguished Service Medal as another posthumous thing. He died of complications of his injuries of what he received from his torturers on July or January 23rd, 1996. And it was a week after his death that he received that tribute in Congress, which large portions went to building this. Yeah, that makes sense. He was inducted into the Military Intelligence Corps Hall of Fame in 1988 while he was alive and the Air Force Intelligence Hall of Fame in 1999. 

Angie: Wow. Now, to me, it’s, this is going to sound so weird, but I think it’s the best way I can explain it. His life started like that from what we know of, you know, between 17 and 19 years old at the sort of break of World War II. And then we know of him in the 90s. 

Like visually, like, you know, we had color photography in the 60s and the 50s, but like we went from black and white TV to cell phones. Like, yeah, he saw it all. You know, like he was there, like secretly holding onto his mission there and his, as you call it, noodle noggin. And like life is just happening around him, but he’s literally lived a century of insane backstory. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. 

Theresa: Wow. Yeah. And that’s, that’s what happens when you go to the library, pick up a couple of books about a different topic and you catch like a five page side story. You go, what, wait, what? Excuse me? I’m going to, I’m going to need to double click on this. 

Angie: You have done that a time or a hundred? Yeah. Yeah. I think that exact same thing happens to me anytime I think about Charlie Too’s court. Like, oh, there’s another one. 

Theresa: Oh, I don’t have a full family tree mapped out for this human. So quiet. Allow me a five-quest. Yes. Please and thank you. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. My pleasure. I’m glad I got to share them because this man just had such a loony tunes breakout and was able to like make it work. It was really fantastic. 

Angie: I mean, what is that ingenuity? I guess like I can, I can handle it. I’m going to do it. Yeah. But like that is also someone that’s not even two years older than my own son. 

Theresa: Have fun thinking about that. That’s going to really mess with you. 

Angie: It already is. Thank you. You’re welcome. If you like, keep picturing them at 40. I’ll be fine. Yeah. If you want to see how I mess with 

Theresa: poor, poor Angie next week, rate, review, subscribe, tune back in. And on that note, goodbye. 

Angie: Teresa has a go fund me for my therapy bill. 

Theresa: I didn’t start it. I refuse to contribute. You can just spend, Momi. That’s effective. Bye. 

Theresa: Bye.