Listen to the episode here.

This episode is yet another shiny example of something you never expected. Theresa starts off sharing the story of Wong Kim Ark, the US citizen you likely never heard of. He is the man who challenged the government, had his case heard by the Supreme Court, and established himself as the first person named as a recipient of birthright citizenship. Oh, this was back in 1898.

Angie, as flabbergasted as she is, somehow figures out a way to share the tragic tale of Torii Mototada. This samurai warrior made a fantastic stand in the late 1500s. Knowing he would likely die in his final stand, his sacrifice was honored by the Shogun, Tokugawa Ieyasu, who dismantled the blood-stained castle and used the boards as ceilings in temples to ensure his deeds were never forgotten.

This episode pairs well with:

Lone Fir Cemetery
The Blood-Soaked Battle Angel and the Battle at Aizuwakumatsu

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast, the podcast where two compulsive nut jobs are going to mainline history stories and means and compulsively research the history behind them and then verbally info dump in a gratuitous nature upon the other one the story they’ve only recently learned. I am host one, I am Teresa, and that is Angie. 

Angie: I am host two and welcome. 

Theresa: This is episode 123. 

Angie: That’s wild. We’ve made it to 123. 123. 

Theresa: That’s bananas. 123.4 is a big milestone that I feel like most don’t get to. 

Angie: That’s a lot of more numbers. 

Theresa: It is a lot more numbers. Yeah. Oh, okay. 

Angie: Like where we’re headed. I like where we’re headed. Yeah, I do what I can. You know, barely contained chaos that you are. 

Theresa: Honestly, I feel like that is how I just try to get through my life as a whole. I am three type A raccoons in a trench coat. 

Angie: I love that for you. Honestly, that’s trying to get into a movie, by the way, three type A raccoons in a trench coat trying to get into a movie. 

Theresa: And upset how everybody ahead of me is doing it wrong. Clearly. 

Angie: Honestly. And not taking it and not doing it quick enough. I mean, yeah. I told one of the boys on the way out this morning that I was not petty enough today to deal with other people’s traffic violations. 

Theresa: So, yeah, I know. I feel where you’re coming from. Yeah. I’ll just let them drive. I’m not. I can’t this day. Yeah. 

Theresa: You know what? Honestly, how about I just don’t? 

Angie: It seems like the best bet for me today. 

Theresa: I mean, I, Hubs and I were somewhere yesterday and I let the inside voice become my outside voice. Oh, I love it when that happens. Hubs looked at me and just said, this is why you’re an indoor cat. Facts. And I’m like, look, you know, here’s why you should be the one who goes and does all the chores outside the errands. 

Angie: The outside the house things. But yeah, you do that thing. You need to personally or an email. I am here. I’m your guy. Yeah. Let’s do that. 

Theresa: Yeah. You need me to document everything. I am here. Do you need a spreadsheet for that? This is what I’ve got. 

Angie: I guess I spread sheeted your socks. It’s fine. Yeah. And I prioritize them. Why are you wearing them? 

Theresa: By the time that we’re out, if you follow the schedule, this way they all get a lot of work. But you know, you don’t wear through one pair super quick. Anyhow, we got you. I understand. I have a story for you that is mostly sources, mostly sources. But the story is sources. I mean, I mean, I hear you just, yeah, like there’s a lot that I’ve got and I love to share. 

Angie: I would love to listen. Okay. 

Theresa: So let me start with set sources. Stanford University Library, Wong Kim Ark, American Immigration Council, Birthright Citizenship in the United States, National Archives, Departure Statement of Wong Kim Ark, 1984. Nope, 1894. Museum of Chinese and America, Wong Kim Ark. 

Angie: You just like to make up numbers in case you guys were curious. 

Theresa: I mean, I cannot read a number out loud. That is, I just can’t. Can’t stop, won’t stop. Live your truth. National Examiner, Honoring, Remembering and Sharing the Life of Kim Ark and His Fight for Justice by Valerie Oka-Peng. History.com had a fabulous article. The Chinese Immigrant Son Who Fought for Birthright Citizenship by Christopher Klein. El Paso Matters. He won a landmark birthright citizenship case at the Supreme Court. El Paso Tried to Deport Anyway by Roger Moore. 

The San Francisco Standard, after Trump blocks birthright citizenship, Bay Area’s Family History is Back in the Spotlight by Hung Han Lee. Okay. So, all of that, titles gave everything away. I hope you weren’t paying attention. And if you were, I have a feeling this is going to be pretty outlandish regardless. 

Angie: I feel like even though I was paying attention, there were so many titles. 

Theresa: I’m not sure where to start. I know. I tried to, I was like, do I let her keep her headphones on? I was like, no, I’m just going to waterboard her with information. And then I’m going to start my story. 

Angie: Great. I’ll live for a solid waterboarding. 

Theresa: I had follow-ups. I don’t know where to go. 

Theresa: You know, it’s like, she literally counted. 

Theresa: It was just like, which one do I go with? Because I had options and I chose nothing. My God, are you feeling well? I need more caffeine. But here we go. The Great Depression of 1873. I kind of talked a little bit about this when we went through last week’s episode where I talked about the Chinese who built up Portland and the Lone Fort First Cemetery. But there was this depression that hit in 1873. There’s widespread unemployment. There’s wage cuts, labor strikes. 

It’s a rip, roar and bad time. Yeah. Now Chinese laborers, among others, are the scapegoats for all the difficulties that the working Caucasians are facing because we have to get somebody while we’re down. Yeah. So there’s this wave of anti-Chinese sediment that kicks in sentiment, not sediment, not dirt. 

Angie: You know what? To me, that made total sense. I want to say that’s the right word. Yep. 

Theresa: There’s a slogan that’s widespread in California. The Chinese must go so unique. It could have been workshopped. Sounds like history rhymes. 

Angie: Yep. Yet again. 

Theresa: So there’s a lot of pressure because the public is deep in their feelings. And so Congress passes and then President Chester A. Arthur signs into law the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. And this bars Chinese workers from entering the U.S. and denying citizenship to Chinese immigrants that are already in the country. 

Angie: I have never in all of my years, can I think of a single time in my life, I have heard that President’s name. 

Theresa: But he did like one thing, right? And this was it. And this was it. This was it. Okay. Got it. 

Angie: He’s a President for like 12 minutes. 

Theresa: I mean, maybe Arthur did more, but I don’t know. Yeah. Okay. 

Angie: I guess I’m going to have to do some Googling later because first time I’ve ever heard of them. Sure. 

Theresa: But I know, I’m sure he might go through and go, oh my gosh, it was him with the dreamy eyes. I have no idea. I can’t even recall what he looks like. 

But yeah, okay. Wong Kim Ark, Wong being the family name, is born October 1st, 1870. He’s born an apartment above his father’s grocery store at 751 Sacramento Street in San Francisco’s Chinatown. Love that we have an address. 

I was so thrilled. So I had to include it. There’s restrictive laws and customs. This limit, we talked about this last time about how there was a limited immigration of Chinese women because you had to prove that you were not disreputable. Right, right, right. You were a maiden, if you will. Yeah. That you weren’t coming here to sex work it up. 

Angie: Which is weird because I feel like that’s what they specifically human trafficked some Asian women here for. 

Theresa: You know, unclear and I have a feeling it’s who, what and what, you know, money greased the palms of somebody else. Yeah. Either way, there’s not a ton of Chinese people born in the country because of these prohibitions. And so there’s not a ton of kids, right? So 1877, Wong’s parents, they are struggling with what is called the Long Depression and they decide to return to China. Now I’ve got some conflicting sources. Some say they brought baby Ark with them. 

Others say that his parents left and then he stayed with relatives. OK, OK. Either way, they decide to go. Now, at some point, I think it’s around 1890. 

He decides to go visit his family in China. Sources are kind of. And murky, you know, or conflicting. 

That’s what I’ve got to go with. When he did go. So OK, the sources says that he went with his family. It said that there was an economic need that prompted him to later return to the US and he worked as a dishwasher and a cook and they have sources to validate that. 

So the middle bits a bit fuzzy. 1890, he travels back to his parents’ home village. And this time he marries and fathers a kid. Before coming in. Village. 

OK, yep. And then decides to come back to work in the US to support his new family. OK, so this already sounds like a very tough situation to leave new family. 

So in 1894, he traveled to China for a temporary visit. So we’ve already had some back and forth, right? Like he’s come and gone a couple of times. He’s bringing with him documentation that he thought he would need to be allowed to return to California. OK, so if you’re trying to travel into California, I’m sure you’ve got a list of documentation off the top of your head that you’re going to need if you’re coming from a different country. Yeah, I bet it doesn’t include an affidavit signed by US citizens. 

I white do this. It’s a testing that he is quote known to us. Yeah, no, can’t say I have that. He was indeed born in the US specifically in the city and county of San Francisco state of California. 

Angie: Yeah, no, no, I don’t have to carry that. But I know, well, at least not right now anyway. 

Theresa: So he sailed back to San Francisco on a ship called the Coptic in 1895. And once he gets to the port, he is detained and denied entry by John Weiss. 

Who is a customs collector and known opponent of Chinese immigration. Oh, that’s a good spot for him. Yeah. 

Now. Fortunately for Wong, the Chinese immigrants in San Francisco had this aid organization, the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, which is also known as the six companies. I cannot see that going that way. Excitingly, I brought up the CCBA when we talked about the loan for cemetery. Okay. Yeah. And how they helped. They helped with legal things. They helped pull money together to bury dead. They did everything together. 

So the six companies and I, there was like some knowledge as to why they’re called the six companies. Did I retain it? No. Did I put it in my notes? Also no. These are things. 

These are things. But Wong is being held captive on a ship in San Francisco Bay. Now, attorneys for the six companies filed a writ of habeas corpus arguing that Wong is being restrained in violation of his rights as a US citizen. Okay. 

Now, with the support of the CCBA, Wong decided to fight his deportation and he mounted a case that went right up to the Supreme Court. That’s awesome. Did I mention that this is 1894 now, 1895. So, early on, right? This is all heating up and Wong is spending months on ships as he’s moved from ship to ship anchored in San Francisco Bay. Of course, because we can’t just 

Angie: walk into San Francisco and get a room because we’ve been right. Okay. 

Theresa: But rather than accepting Wife’s decision, he’s taking on the US government. He’s got this writ of habeas corpus. It’s being challenged by US attorneys and the US attorneys, right? Wong Kim Ark has been at all times by reason of his race, language, color and dress, a Chinese person. That’s the argument. But I was born here in the US. Ah, see, this is where we’re going to get to some fun things because there’s two kinds of citizenship. There is citizenship by blood. You inherit the citizenship of your parents. 

Right. And then there is citizenship of soil. And they have the Latin versions in the law. So, if you are born, then you are a citizen of that soil, but you can also inherit the citizenship of your parents. 

And so they’re arguing. You inherit that of your parents. You are Chinese. 

They are subject to the emperor. So, kick rocks. Right. Okay. So the US Solicitor General Holmes Conrad, he disagrees. He’s like, we’re taking this all the way at the top. 

This goes all the way to the top because I am not letting this happen. He’s arguing that Wong is barred entry under the Chinese Exclusion Act. And he also maintains that he’s not a US citizen because his parents are Chinese persons subject to the emperor of China. And so by extension, Sun is also a Chinese person who is all right. Subject to the will of the emperor. Right. 

This makes sense. Now the case, this is hinging on the 14th Amendment, which is still pretty, pretty fresh. It was ratified in 1868. And this guaranteed citizenship and equal civil rights to emancipated slaves, African Americans in the wake of the Civil War. Now the opening line of the amendment is all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States. 

Angie: Which is our guy because he was literally born right here in San Francisco. 

Theresa: Okay. And that was also interpreted as lower by the lower courts as granting citizenship to children of citizens of foreign country on American soil. We get US district judge William Merrow cited with Wong declaring him an American citizen and ordering his release. 

His opponents within the law, they saw legal proceedings that they could take, use him as a test case and push that case all the way up so that they can actually get law ratified. Of course. Now March of 1897. So this has now been years in the making. The Supreme Court hears the oral arguments for the case of the United States versus Wong Kim Arc. 

And they debated whether American citizenship would be based on the principle of just sanguines or right of blood or just to lead the right of the soil. Right. Okay. So we still got some kinks to work out. 

We, yeah, like it’s too new to have this figured out yet. Okay. So just like I stated earlier, the government’s case is like his parents are subject to the will of the emperor, their loyalty sides that way. Ergo, he cannot. Just like at that point, Native Americans were subject to their tribe. 

So they cannot be citizens of the US because they follow a completely different level of government. Right. Okay. That makes sense. It doesn’t make sense. I mean, look, it’s one of the things that you understand their logic train. 

Even if you don’t agree with where it’s going, you can at least see that you can see how the cars line up. Yeah. At the very least, yeah. 

A plus B doesn’t equal Dorito in this equation. For the most part. Yeah. So the Supreme Court in this landmark decision held a six to vote in favor of long Kim arc. Okay. 

We like this. Justice Horace Gray, writing for the majority, found that long was in fact a natural born citizen of the United States as he was physically born on US soil, regardless of his parents origin. And this is where we get the interpretation of the 14th amendment’s birthright citizenship. And I was just like, this is so old. 

Now I got to tell you, I’m not, but halfway through my story. That’s bananas. Because they go on to continue that long was born in the United States. His parents were not carrying on business or a business. They were employed in a diplomatic or official capacity for the emperor of China. So basically you’re not a diplomat, a diplomatic child or a diplomat’s child born on US soil. Subject. Okay. 

Angie: So if he were a diplomat’s child born on US soil, that would make sense for him to still be subject to the emperor. Yeah, exactly. Right. Okay. I’m just making sure I’m tracking on the same. Yeah. Same line here. Okay. 

Theresa: If you and Ian become diplomats and you fly to Austria and give birth to baby number three and that baby, if they followed this same type of logic, that baby would be American and not Austrian. 

Angie: Okay. Because we’re diplomats. Because you’re diplomats. Right. And we probably live at the embassy, which is technically American soil. 

Theresa: But I mean, if you pop out on the sidewalk, then I don’t know. 

Angie: There’s some variables here that are unaccounted for that. 

Theresa: You know what? But either way, that’s kind of the logic train. Now, the court, as they’re kind of going through this case, one of the things that came up is they basically said, how could citizenship be denied to the children of Chinese immigrants when it’s extended to the children of Scottish, German and others? True. Diplomatic or not. Yeah. So if we say, Wong Kim Ark is not an American, then we have to take it away from all of these whiteies as well. 

But we can’t cause their Caucasian. But at least at some point, somebody took their noodle noggin, pulled it from that moist, dark orifice and realized that maybe we should apply some critical thought here. 

Angie: I appreciate that. At least we’re making some sort of headway in the right direction as far as thinking our thoughts all the way through before just gunning it. Yeah. So. 

Theresa: Okay. So despite all of that, the passage that I just talked about with, you know, basically, if we take it from the Chinese, we take it from the whites. So there’s basically some, some snags in that citizenship because citizenship, while it’s not racially restricted, it’s specifically established that through Congress, that Chinese immigrants could never themselves be US citizens and that law is not officially repealed until 1943. 

Angie: I hate that so much. 

Theresa: So there’s this weird, fuzzy middle ground that is still like wonky for decades. So their children remain subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. They, so they qualify for US citizenship at birth. 

Angie: But because they’re Chinese, they don’t. 

Theresa: Yeah. Like it is some weird middle ground, right? And this is, this is at least. 

Angie: I’m going to have to assume these sort of legislations were in some sort of. State, at least from the point of the gold rush. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that’s a long time to be like, could we or could we not be US citizens? But like, we’ve, but we’ve lived here and raised our families here. 

Theresa: They are US citizens, but. I mean, I don’t know. I’m going to fast forward, right? Okay. I just want to highlight ambiguity. Oh, no, you’re fine. I’m just like issues for somebody else. Future politicians are going to have arguments over this. Yeah. Okay. And thankfully we’re post all of that. So we have no issues. So this interpretation of the 14th amendment stays active and is more than or is the precedent for more than 125 years. 

But going back to long Kim arc 1901. He crosses from. Wara’s to El Paso, which is a very strange border crossing for me. I don’t know why he went into Wara’s. I don’t know how like. Anyhow, he, okay. 

Angie: That’s the last place I thought you were going to say it’s on. 

Theresa: Do you see what I mean? Right. One of these things is not like the other. But either way, homeboy is leaving Mexico via LPOW or syrup. 

Angie: Maybe he was just vacationing in Mexico. 

Theresa: He honestly in a week. These are things he was a cook. He had to go try the tacos. Who among us? Truthfully, but he gets to El Paso. And he is the only person in the world that the Supreme Court ruling has said this man is a citizen by name. He’s got the only distinction doing that. 

Angie: Okay, I love that for him, but I hate it for everybody else. 

Theresa: El Paso immigration officials arrest him anyhow and he began deportation proceedings. 

Angie: Feel like homeboy went through the wrong. I don’t feel like there’s a right one. Yeah, you’re probably right. Now that you say that, you’re probably right. 

Theresa: So October 29th, 1901, Charles Nehan, a Chinese inspector quote unquote as a title in El Paso. I don’t know how much demand there is for a Chinese inspector in El Paso. 

Angie: I have follow up questions, but I feel like maybe they’re unanswerable follow up questions. 

Theresa: They are. He like, no, no, no, no. The 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act is what you’re violating their home price. So we’re going to arrest you. I don’t care what your name is, but he’s like, I got papers that the Supreme Court. 

Angie: So it’s like the court, but it has sour cream. Yeah. 

Theresa: It’s burrito. Yeah. I’m glad you caught my joke there as real bad as that was. So it takes four months for Wong to win a ruling again, claiming and supporting the fact that he is a US citizen and cannot be deported. I hate this for him. This came almost four years after the US Supreme Court decided the landmark case. 

Angie: That end, you know what? If the Supreme Court has said you are a citizen, no one else should be arguing with you about whether or not you are a citizen. Ta-da. The logic is so flawed there. 

Theresa: I, you know what? From your lips to God’s ears. 

Angie: Oh, I’m so frustrated for him. Okay. Sorry, I’m just getting all worked up over this. 

Theresa: My job is to get you all worked up. 

Angie: You do it so well. 

Theresa: It is a gift. 

Angie: Take a breath. 

Theresa: Now, Wong’s landmark legal case is well known among legal scholars, but the run in with the El Paso immigration authorities after the Supreme Court ruling was lost to history until we had this scholar named Amanda Frost, who stumbled upon records in the National Archives and wrote about it in 2021. 

Angie: It’s been that long. Yeah. I was thought you were going to say like this scholar Amanda Frost discovered this. It was 1925. No, I mean like basically last week in the grand scheme of history. Yeah, like 12 minutes ago. Just like, okay. 

Theresa: So meanwhile, January 20th, 2025, one of the first actions that President Trump took after being inaugurated was to issue an executive order purporting to deny birthrights. Citizenship of children born to undocumented parents or whose parents are in the country under temporary status. Of course, and triumphantly litigation ensued shortly after the administration issued this order and the implementation has been blocked by courts as of three days after that fact. 

Angie: Okay. So just, just so I clearly understand the implementation of. Trump’s plans here were blocked by the court. 

Theresa: Right. Yeah. They were like, absolutely not. We actually have a court case about this. Yeah. We’ve talked about it before and we’ve decided how about no. How about we have a little precedent. There are rules. Yeah. Okay. Now the descendants of long Kim arc remains steadfast to their dedication to uphold their family’s legacy. 

Which I absolutely love. Now, one of the, one of the sources that I couldn’t validate, I couldn’t go through. There was a podcast where they had said that at like the 125 anniversary of this case coming into being, the reporter went and found either son or his grandson records. They’re ambiguous and they said, what do you think about your dad and granddaughter and granddad? They’re involved in it. And he was like, I’m sorry, what? 

They’re my Supreme Court case with my direct ancestor, recent ancestors. He didn’t say anything. Yeah. It’s like, we never talked about it. How would this be a thing? Oh, and so the most recent descendant who clearly benefits from this had no idea that this was such a big deal. 

Angie: Okay. Okay. That actually, you know, that checks like the man’s already been through enough. He probably just wants to live his years out. Like, yeah, we don’t need to keep rehashing the things that are difficult in our life. Like, let’s, let’s just do the thing. 

Theresa: But either way, we have some of his descendants. We have the long siblings, Sandra and Norman. They’re born in San Francisco and they still live in the Bay Area. So cool. There was an event held at the headquarters of the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, which were raging. 

Nope. They’d raised funds for Wong Kim Arc’s case. Now, Sandra lives in North Bay. Norman lives in the East Bay. Their, their father’s either the son or grandson of Wong Kim Arc. 

They really don’t know because there were discriminatory laws at the time that kind of made immigration paperwork for Chinese nationals unreliable. Why am I shocked? Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Yeah. I mean, we talk about how great of record keeping the Chinese and Japanese are. And we love this. We love that we have records that go back millennia. Literal. Yeah. 

I’d say literally thousands of years. And we honor and trust these and their validity. And meanwhile, like a hundred plus years ago in the US, we’re like, well, we were too racist to pay attention to if we were writing it down right. 

Angie: We also don’t know how we spelled it and the typewriter ran out of whatever right or something like three words in. 

Theresa: So it ran out of three words in and so we couldn’t be bothered. 

Angie: Yeah, this feels normal. 

Theresa: Okay. Now, Sandra said she didn’t learn her family’s history until her father’s funeral, that it just wasn’t mentioned while she was growing up. Wow. Wow, okay. Okay. And it was reporters and civil rights groups that eventually started asking questions to the family about the case. 

That’s what caused them to kind of go, wait a minute, what? Okay. Can we read that article? Can we see those bits from the National Archive? Now, Norman said his father was a China-born restaurant worker who served in the U.S. Navy. And he’s considering contacting officials in China or returning to the village in Guangdong, where Wang Kim-Ark and his family had ties to find out more. And that same city, Guangdong, is the same area where all of the Chinese, or primarily the Chinese people that came through to build Portland came from. 

They all came from this one small region. Yeah, I’m really saying that. Okay. In recent days, Norman’s been speaking up against Trump to the media. But like more recently, like at this event, he was calling for unity against or in a device of political climate. 

And I want to end it on something he said. We’re all Americans. When we call ourselves American, we’re agreeing to all be one. Oh. 

Excuse me, the shivers. And I can show you an image that I found where it is the, like some of the affidavit paperwork that he had coming into San Francisco. Oh, wow. Okay. 

Angie: So she’s showing me like the sepia tone stained with time letterhead type letterhead. And then printed on it is his photo, a photo of him. He is got the, I don’t know what the type of shirt is called, but the high collar pins in the back. Yep. 

Theresa: Do you know what that’s called? I don’t. So I’m going to just move right along because I’d rather see my mouth shut than open it and be wrong. 

Angie: Same. And then below it, so it’s got a couple of paragraphs about him. And then below it is the seal of California and then the city and county of San Francisco. And I’m assuming that’s going to be his naturalization signature domain. Maybe. Yeah. 

Theresa: So basically this seems to say this guy is who we say he is and we’re a bunch of white people that recognize him as being born here and who lives. Right, right. Okay. 

Angie: And it’s dated November 15, 1894. I hate that he had to do that. That he had to have his neighbors like attest to his existence here where he was born. 

Theresa: Same. I like his hutzpah for being willing and able. I hate that he had to. Honestly, yeah. 

Angie: It makes me wonder how many people had to do the same thing. Like, after him, how many people had to fight into the same degree that were able to use his case as like a starting point. 

Theresa: Right. But it was neat that, you know, like he had children born in China that were able to come to the U.S. because he was declared a U.S. citizen. Yeah. And so we have his descendants living in the Bay Area now. Like not far from where. Yeah. Yeah. 

Angie: Oh, it’s so cool to see the chain of events working the right way. Like, does that make sense? It does. Yeah. You see the outcome of one person’s actions and how they play out for future generations. 

Theresa: And I love that now that they know the legacy of their grandfather or great grandfather, that now they’re able to step in, lean in, and be like, no. And I think as we think about this device of political climate, we have to think of the intersectionality of all of this. It has to be, it can’t just be like, oh, well, the Latinx are on their own. We’re Asians. We’re going to band with the other Asians. Oh, you know what? You’re not Chinese, so you’re not one of us. We need to all be like, you know what? No. How about no? How about we’re all in this together? 

Angie: We’re all in the same way. We all bleed the same way. Yeah. 

Theresa: How about what’s right is right regardless of background? 

Angie: What’s, yep. You’re so right. Oh, my gosh. Thanks for existing. The alternative is unthinkable. I mean, for me it is. I would be devastated if you didn’t exist. And I’m pretty sure hubs would melt, honestly. 

Theresa: I mean, he and I have like pissing matches on whose life would fall apart first without the other one. Dang it. 

Angie: I think that’s hilarious. I always tell Ian that he would not exist without me. And he doesn’t argue. He just says, yeah, you’re probably right. Okay. I’ve now officially have my notes up if you’re ready for my very different story. 

Theresa: I mean, I’ve got my embroidery in my lap, so. Okay. 

Angie: Well, so my sources are badass of the week. The Sengoku archives. And there’s a couple of sources about Tsushima Castle. And I just would like to say, I would just like to take this opportunity to say how very proud I am of myself for staying off of the American continent for the entire month of May. 

Theresa: Why are you proud about that? That is like a weird flex. 

Angie: I know it’s a super weird flex, but like I remember at the beginning of the month being like I have a question about a story. Where’s your story taking place? And you were like, my story takes place in the US. And I was like, okay, great. Then I’m going to take that. Like I know you’re not going to do my story. 

And then you made some comment about like staying in my own lane that I will be staying out of your lane. And so I was like, cool, then I’m going to spend the entire month outside of the US so that I never once crossed paths with one of our stories. So we’re not worried. And I’m just really proud of myself for doing that. That’s all. Okay. 

I managed to keep out of your hair for a whole month and I’m proud of myself. So there. So I’m going to tell you about Tori Motodara and the siege of Fushimi. Are you familiar with this? 

No. Oh, well, let me let me regale you with some some interesting Japanese history. So I’m going to start with Fushimi Castle. It’s from the very beginning sort of shrouded in this cloud of failure. I don’t know if like the land that it was built on was hexed or somebody, I don’t know, stepped on the wrong crack. I don’t know, but from the very beginning, this area of Fushimi is just not ever designed to be successful as a home site. The original castle is founded and built between the years 1592 and 1594 by a man called the Great Unifier Tomotomi Hidejoshi, who was a Japanese samurai in Diamo. I never pronounced that word. Diamo. Okay. I said the one word I cannot say right like the Thames River, which 

Theresa: now I officially say wrong every time on purpose. 

Angie: Incidentally, and I could not not tell you this, Tototomi, he basically rises from like a position as a peasant to being a member of the retinue of Odenobunaga. 

Theresa: My man, that dirty barbarous man, Obunaga. 

Angie: I just I saw that and I was like, no freaking way. That’s so cool. What a small world we all live in. 

Theresa: Now, Angie’s referencing the very episode one 

Angie: where 

Theresa: I talked about the black samurai Yasuke who found his way in Odenobunaga’s court. Yes, yes, I am as a literal black man from Africa, which Holy hell. Anyhow, go on in 1500s Japan, right? 

Angie: So, so this Thomas Toyotomi, he builds this castle and about a year later, it’s destroyed in what sources say was quite a big earthquake. They have him after? Yeah, they do, right? Shortly after he sets out to rebuild it and then he opts out of life a couple of years later. I tried to find out a little bit more information to find out exactly how he passed but I was a little unclear. They just know that he died at Tsushima Castle within a couple of years and they did try to keep it quiet for a minute. 

So I know there was definitely some some stuff going on, but I don’t know what the reason of his death was. So anyway, then enter a fellow by the name of Tokugawa Iesu and he moves into the castle, which was destroyed in a battle. He then rebuilds the castle, only to then later dismantle the castle as per his he develops this one castle per country law. Like I don’t fully understand this law and I wish that I did, but my understanding is very limited and it’s to the effect of like you get one castle and that’s that. I think that he is trying to go against this whole like system that I spoke about earlier in Toei Gozen’s episode of like, you know, you have the land of Gentry, but they’re all living in these lavish palaces in the capital, but they also have these other pieces of land and other homes elsewhere. 

I think he’s trying to limit that. OK, but I’m not a hundred percent sure exactly what to deal with that is. So anyway, like I said, he moves into the castle, he rebuilds it and then later dismantles it. So at this point in the story, just for rough fun, I’d like to tell you that it was built, destroyed, rebuilt, then destroyed, then dismantled. So like this castle has not had a good life. But if you go and I did not include any photos, I’m so sorry, I just now realize I could have. There are some it was supposed to be like the outside is a fortress. 

The inside is a lavish estate, like golden paneled walls, room lavish. Wow. OK. Yeah. 

Like that’s that’s the idea of what it was supposed to be like. Enter Tori Motodata. He’s born roughly around 1539. And as a young man, he becomes very close to Tokugawa. And if the name Tokugawa, say, sounds like familiar to you at all, it’s because he’s the founder of the shogunate that would rule Japan for the next two and a half centuries. Yeah, I figured it rang a bell, right? 

Like I can’t think of doing Oda Nubunaga and that not ringing a bell. That’s just like she’s going to know exactly who all of these people are, probably by first name. So anyway, these two, they grow up together and they’re serving in combat from very young men. And Tokugawa sees how skilled Motodata is. As he’s watching him do things like taking 2000 Calvary men with him to smash through the line of 10,000 Samurai. Like this man is fearless and has no qualms getting the job done. He is also present and involved in a lot of important battles. One includes the siege of Iduae Castle and his actions here against the man called the Crimson Demon of War. 

Theresa: What a name. Right. 

Angie: He is an episode all in of his self, in my opinion, but basically like Motodata’s his prowess during this particular battle sort of ensures his place as one of Tokugawa’s like most trusted commanders in general, right? Like he’s the dude Tokugawa trusts through and through. 

And as a both a reward and as an acknowledgement that Tokugawa is giving Motodata that he recognizes his skill on the battlefield and his tactical leadership, he gives him command of Tsushima Castle. Now, what we need to know. Dismantled by this point. It’s not has not been dismantled yet. He dismantles it a little bit later. 

Theresa: Okay. So it’s not full regression Ikea furniture. Correct. 

Angie: We are still working with a functional castle at this point, a functional fortress at this point. But what we need to know is that this is not a peaceful time in Japanese history, right? 

Like that’s probably pretty obvious. And there are these two super powerful groups vying for like the supremacy over Japan. And there is this castle kind of sitting right there. And Fushimi Castle is the like the last place of the realm of men with which Hiroshi, the original builder of Fushimi Castle, boil men still live. So there’s like this little this little group that are still loyal to the original owner, if you will, Fushimi Castle. 

And then on the other side of that are all Tokugawa’s men and kind of the rest of Japan. Okay. So that’s that’s kind of what we’re working with, right? 

And it sounds like foreshadowing. Right. So you’ve got what’s left of Hito Yoshis men and his like what, you know, his loyal few. And then you have all Tokugawa and his men. 

And these are these two groups that are vying for power. And then you have Fushimi Castle and Fushimi Castle is what’s left. Like if Hito Yoshis men can take Fushimi Castle, Tokugawa is pretty much screwed. 

Like it’s the last, like it’s like the wall in Game of Thrones. If that makes any sense, like if we can break this, we’re toast. Right. Okay. So that just tells us like how important Motodara is to Tokugawa and his leadership skills and all these other things. Right. So this is what we’re working with. We’re working with this idea that Tokugawa knows this is the last stronghold and he gives this command to Motodara like with full knowledge that once I leave here, there is a chance I will never see you again. 

Because what they know for sure is that at some point in the very near future, there will be an attack. Oh, and Motodara is like, I got you. Don’t worry about it. You go do your thing in the East. It’s my greatest pleasure to serve you. 

Okay. So that’s kind of what happens. And in August of 1600 Motodara receives word that there is a party heading his way of at least 40,000 of Hito Yoshis loyals and it’s led by a man called Ishada Mitsunari and they intend to lay like to lay waste to the castle. They are going to destroy it to rubble and he knows this. Okay. Now mind you, how many men you think you’ve got at the castle with him? 

Theresa: Oh, gosh, we’re going up against 40,000 and homeboy said, gosh, I know this is going to be bad. I’m going to say 500. Well, we’re lucky we have 2000. Oh, okay. Well, I’m glad we were prepared. 2000 feels woefully short. Well, fully short. 

Angie: But Motodara is like, I, this is what I was built for. Today is a good day to die. Pretty much like me and my name will do our job. And so he is like, absolutely. Let us do the thing. Come on. Let’s go. I know I’m screwed. We just need to hold this fortress for a few more days. Doing so will give time for Tokugawa who is fighting on the other side of the country to turn around with the full force of his army and march home in time to save the capital. 

Okay. Like, and Motodara knows this. So he’s like, I have to hold out for as long as humanly possible. So he preps for battle. He preps for the, you know, he digs in for the siege, all of that, right? So in fact, I just have to say, this is like kind of broke my heart a little bit when one source says that when it just prior to August, Tokugawa had had come through and like stopped off to visit Motodara on his way to where he was going for this other battle. And one source says that they wept while they spoke fully aware that they would never see each other again. 

Theresa: I love this version of masculinity. Right. 

Angie: And for me, like reading that really kind of shows that side of humanity that we don’t get to see in a lot of these moments, I think, in a lot of, especially in movies, when you, you know, you look back on historical movies, you never see these tender moments between friends where it’s like, I recognize your importance in my life. Love you, K-bye. 

Theresa: Well, you don’t see it between men. Right. That’s, that’s what I mean. 

Angie: So I just, I wanted to put that in there. But anyway, back to the seat. Badass of the week has this great quote about Motodara’s resolve saying he would stand and hold out as long as possible, wreak as much nut crunching devastation as his 2000 sword-swinging samurai psychos could muster. That is a quote. I was like, yeah, you’re going to be included. 

I freaking love this quote. So, you know, there’s your visuals. You’re looking for it. So they prepare for the onslaught and it arrives. And for days, there is just fierce fighting on both sides. You’ve got firing guns at each other. There’s cannon fire. There’s like fire fire and then fire on top of fire, but this castle will not fall. At one point, the enemy, this is like one of the, like, what is a little side stories that happens in the battle. At one point, the enemy fires an arrow into one of the Baileys and attached to the arrow is a note for the commander of that area, telling him they have his family. And if he does not help them, their execution is all but sure. 

Theresa: I have a feeling the commander is just like, I’ll see him in the next world. You would think, but no. 

Angie: Oh. He panics and immediately takes 40 of his men. So remember, we only have 200 to begin with. Or at this point. 2000. Yeah, excuse me. 2000 to begin with. So he takes 40 of his men and they start to disassemble part of the wall and then light a fire. And between all the battling that’s already happening and the fire and the disassembling of the wall, there’s all sorts of chaos. 

Smoke is everywhere. A handful of the attackers make their way in. Now, shortly after this, peace terms are brought to the attention of Motodata and he’s like, yeah, no. No, thank you. Like we’re here. We’re going to do it out. You walked all this way. I mean, yeah, I’d hate for you to feel 

Theresa: you got the short end of the sheet because I gave up too early. 

Angie: I prepared tea. I meant your arrows. That’s why we’re here, right? So he personally leads the counterattack. At this point, he has 200 men left. Oh, they have lost so much. And then he has 10. 

Theresa: And this is like that game of risk where you go up against so many and you’re just getting whittled and whittled and whittled down. 

Angie: One guy left. 

Theresa: And your attackers just like, roll again. 

Angie: Yes. And you know your screw, but you’re going to roll again anyway. Yeah. So these final moments, they’re shrouded in a little bit of mystery or at the very least some conflicting accounts. But at this point, it seems that Motodata realizes like this is it boys, we’re going out. So he takes his last 10 men to retreat into the castle, like into the inner inner sanctum of the castle to commit seppuku. But there’s a man there called Suzuki. Shigitomo and sources suggest that he was there and he challenged Motodata in a fight to the death. Now, one of two things that either happened either Motodata asks him to wait so that he can die with his men. And they all commit seppuku right there, or they fight and Shigitomo kills him either way. Motodata’s head was taken as a trophy and displayed on the Kobashi Bridge along with other relatives of Tokugawa. We know that they’re stolen by cloth merchants and then given a proper burial. But the sacrifice was not in vain because a couple of things come out of it. First, they took with them 3,000 of the enemy army. 

Theresa: So that’s not bad. Not bad. 

Angie: You took more than you lost. Right. Granted, you didn’t have a ton to start with. Right. Now, while so numbers are skewed, they believe the top end of the amount of men Motodata had was 2,000, but it could have been as low as 1800. But either way, most of them are dead. There is no no number for how many actually survived the incident. 

Theresa: But with the stealing, there’s a high likelihood of them opting out after the battle. 

Angie: I yeah, right. But what this does this this 10 days of siege is it gives Tokugawa the time he needs to turn around and come home with the full force of his army. That’s all he needed. 

And Motodata knows that. So the other thing, and this is why I wanted to tell a story, because I just thought this is absolutely off the wall and kind of the coolest thing ever. Tokugawa disassembles the castle at this point. And the floorboards where the last remaining men died are used in the ceilings as in temples around Kyoto. 

Theresa: And they’re stained with blood that you can see. Oh, that’s where I. Okay. Yep. Yeah. So I guess I did no part of the story. I figured you would. 

Angie: So there is a letter that was sent to Tadamasha. He was Motodata’s son just a few days before the fall of the castle. And in the letter, he tells the history of his family and their loyalty to Tokugawa. And the letter is phenomenal. There are, you can actually still, like there’s English translations of it. And I’m trying to find it for you so that I can read it to you. There are little chunks. Would you like to hear some of it? 

Go for it. Recently, there has been the report of an uprising in the Kamigata area and that a large number of rebel Demyos have fallen into the evil scheming of Ishada, who will firstly siege through this castle and are now making such preparations with large forces. For myself, I am resolved to make a stand within the castle and to die a quick death. It would not take much trouble to break through a part of their numbers and escape, no matter how many tens of thousands of horsemen approach from their attack or by how many columns we were surrounded. But that is not the true meaning of being a warrior. 

It would be difficult to account as loyalty. Rather, I will stand off the forces of the entire country here and without even one-one-hundredth of the men necessary to do so will throw up a defense and die a resplendent death. By doing so, I will show that to abandon the castle that should be defended or to value one’s life so much as to avoid danger and show the enemy one’s weakness is not within the family tradition of my master, Issei. He goes on in this letter and he tells his son to look after his brothers. And all of these just big, flowery, beautiful things. 

And then he goes on to say like basically giving him life advice on how he should be, what type of leader he should be, what type of man he should be all with knowing. I will not see you again. I plan to die here. And this is the advice I choose to leave you with. And it’s beautiful. 

Theresa: We have this letter from the fifteen-hundreds. Yeah. But we don’t know or Wong Kim Arts. The grandson or great grandson, no clue. Yeah. 

Angie: Isn’t that wild? The duality of humans are weird. It is absolutely bizarre. So that is my story about the bloodstained floors or bloodstained ceilings of the temples in Kyuko. 

Theresa: And I love, I love knowing the backstory and knowing that he was just so petty that he’s like, no, we’re going to see their sacrifice for hundreds of years. Yeah. 

Angie: And that was, that was pretty much when Tokugawa got there and he saw what happened. He was like, and take it apart and send it everywhere. Show them what it is to be a warrior. 

Show them what it means to hold out till the very end. And I watched this video. I didn’t include it in my notes because I couldn’t remember what the video was called, but it was like a tour of the temples where the floorboards are. And in some of these spaces, you can see bloody footprints and handprints. And one of them showed the outline of what they assume is one of them in spaces. 

Like smashed into the floor. And I was like, whoa, that’s insane. But I just, I appreciated like the humanity of the whole story. Like I’m a dad. I’m aware of what’s going on, but I’m also a warrior. So I’ll leave my sons with the best advice I can give them and what it means to be a warrior and to have a public office like this. Like from the very beginning, all his goal is just to serve and do it the right way. And so that’s my guy. 

Theresa: I love it. I love all of it. This has been a delightful little romp through history. Well, I wouldn’t that if you’ve enjoyed it where Angie went bloody and Teresa strangely stayed away from so much as a bloody nose. Right. Or if you are, are we okay? See how roles reverse tomorrow or next week or when the next time you tune in. And on that note, goodbye. 

Theresa: Goodbye.