Listen to the episode here.

There are certain things you can expect from this podcast and today’s episode is no deviation.

Theresa shares the story of Toto Koopman, the first famous biracial model and WWII spy. Her list of lovers runs from Tallulah Bankhead to Winston Churchill’s son. Because she was a hell of a lot more than her black book, she served the Italian resistance faithfully and survived the Ravensbruck concentration camp.

Angie refuses to be outdone and shares the story of the gender non-conforming Queen Nzinga. This boss stood her ground against the Portuguese and made them regret tangling with her.

This episode pairs well with:
WWII Spy: Nancy Wake
WWII Spy: Josephine Baker
Sudan’s Warrior Queens
Yaa Asantewaa

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhistory Podcast, a podcast where two frenemies join together after reading history memes and then impulsively researching their back stories and then tell each other the story we’ve only recently learned. I am host number one. I am Teresa and that is host two. 

Angie: I’m Angie at what point did we become frenemies? I don’t know. 

Theresa: I have no idea. Did you have a dream? Did I piss you off in your sleep? No, but the times that I have had a dream where hubs pissed me off and I was upset at him for the day for the things that sleep Mike did. Unreal. 

Angie: Did the man at times evens them and like, oh, I must have got you in your sleep. Yeah. Yeah, you didn’t even bring your flowers in my awake. So here we are. 

Theresa: So I have a story that I was surprised by. And it’s going to relate to another story that I tell you at some point, but I can’t tell you the second story for a while. And that really bumps me out. 

I am going to tell you about Toto Koopman. I don’t know why that rings a bell. It doesn’t. Don’t worry. 

It doesn’t. You don’t know her. Okay. How? Okay. 

Go. My sources, the book, Toto and Coco by Alan frame. They.me has a story. The story of Toto Koopman, the free spirited model who turned World War spy or World War two spy by Elisa Goodman podcast. 

Dan Snow’s history hit Toto Koopman, socialite, Vogue model and World War two spy. I love this for us. Are we ready? Yes. Okay. 

So. Catherine Koopman is born in an Indonesian island of Java in 1908. She’s half Indonesian. Mom comes. Mom is Indonesian, but she comes from Chinese ancestry and she’s also got a Dutch father. Now the Dutch apparently had colonized Java like three centuries prior to. 

So that’s what kind of what we’re working with here. And the country is still full of prejudice and it doesn’t. I know. Apparently biracial is an issue or something to take on bridge against, which is weird to me, but these are things. Her mother, her and her brother are all referred to derisively as green Dutchman. Because of the color of the skin. And they’re not. I’ve never heard green by any means, but that is just the phraseology. 

Angie: Well, I mean, that’s like, this is the same as I’ve never understood why people call people of Asian descent yellow. I’m like, what the, but they. 

Theresa: No, they’re not actually. And I’m not white. I’m pink. I’m not even a color. I’m just pasty and glue. 

Theresa: Lucent, truly. Hold you up to a light and pure right on through. I could. Now. I’m going to, I’m going to call her toto for the most part. I’ll get to that. I’m going to call. 

Okay. So her name, her name is, she goes by toto. Her birth name is Catherine. She’s the mother, but dad had kind of a thing with horses. His favorite horses name was toto. And apparently that’s where she gets the name from. She’s named after daddy, dearest horse. 

Angie: You know, when you got a favorite, you got a favorite. You just pass the name on to your next favorite, I guess. 

Theresa: I, yeah, it’s, it’s. I never named my kid after any of the pets I had. Yeah, I can’t say I’ve done the same either. But apparently I’m doing it wrong. 

So there’s that. So despite, you know, her being quote, a green Dutchman, she is super proud of her heritage and she speaks openly of it. Throughout her entire life. And she is very progressive as are her, her, her parents. Now, as she proceeds to, to grow up, she at the age of 12 is sent to the prestigious boarding school in the Netherlands, where she excelled, excelled in languages. 

Get a girlfriend. By the time she graduated, she, and we’re talking like high school age graduated. She could speak Italian, German, French, English and Dutch fluently. Very little of any accent. I love her already. 

And she’s beginning to master Turkish. Pardon. Yeah. Okay. I mean, she, she wasn’t there yet. So I couldn’t say that that was in the fluent category. Now she, as was the standard for wealthy families, she attended finishing school in England and upon graduating, she divorces herself from what her family wants for her. 

Dad wants her to be a show jumper, because again, daddy loves horses. Of course. Yes. She decides that she’s going to make her way to Paris. It’s 1928. She’s 19 years old and she’s got some super high cheekbones. So she wants to be a model. 

Of course. Now this is the kind of work it deeply upsets her family because they assume you are selling your body, even if it’s just the photos thereof. So you are just one step above prostitution. Okay. Now they wanted her to do show jumping, have children, be a well kept wife. 

Angie: Oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry. Mary, a lawyer, got it. 

Theresa: Yeah. And so, you know, she’s just like, how about how about no, but she ends up modeling exclusively for Vogue. 

Angie: Nice. Get it, girlfriend. 

Theresa: She is like one of the first well known biracial models. Period. Okay. Okay. Later, she goes on to model for Chanel. And other famous designers of people I don’t know because I’m not very cultured. 

Angie: There’s lots of ways to be cultured, my dear. 

Theresa: Okay. Well, modeling and high end fashion just ain’t it for me because, you know, she also modeled for Madeline Villanette, Marcel Roshas and mine, butcher probably butchered all of those names. And I don’t know. I’m never going to be wearing their tags against my skin. Let’s be honest. 

Okay. Love this. Love this. In the book, Toto and Coco, which I compulsively read, couldn’t put it down. 10 out of 10 would recommend, would read again. Toto describes Coco Chanel as a bully. 

Angie: I’m not shocked, honestly. Right? 

Theresa: Like this is, it’s giving devil wears Prada. Also not shocked. Yep. These two run in the same circles. Chanel is a little bit older where Coco is young. Chanel, I’m going to say at first leaned towards fascism and Toto sided with the resistance philosophy. 

Right. Now, Toto is charismatic. She is slender. She has this aura about her, right? She is beloved by the designers that she worked for and participated in every aspect of the creations collections. That’s awesome. Like one of the things you do because apparently models don’t make a ton of money. 

Angie: Typically, yeah, not at the very beginning at least. Yeah. You have to be, you know, trying to think of off the top of my head, Tyra Banks. Right. 

Theresa: You know, you need those celebrity endorsement kind of deals. Yeah. But she was what they called a jockey. So she would wear their clothing out in all aspects of Parisian society from balls to racetracks to opera. 

Angie: I love this. She’s, she’s living the life. 

Theresa: She’s and she loves opera because she speaks all of these language fluently. Like she can just kind of move through the countries that she wants to move through. And the opera, she’s not needing to read the little translations on the bulletin or the play bill. She’s able to actually like enjoy and immerse herself because she just gets it. One of the things she said that I actually loved is she said one dressed up not to please men, but to astound other women. Yes. 

Angie: Yes. I cannot, I cannot say how much I love the idea that you like, I think there are so many more women that dress for themselves and dress to be like a beacon towards other women. And men think we’re doing it for them the whole time. Like, no, I am dressing the way I’m dressing for the cute little girl that said that was told one day she couldn’t be a princess. Oh, no, honey, you wear that dress. 

Theresa: You wear that every day. Right. I’m just like, I dress for the, oh, you’re going to wear that. Yeah, I’m gonna wear that. That’s comfortable. You can’t stop me. 

Theresa: Yeah. That’s fabulous. 

Angie: Mm hmm. Here for it. 

Theresa: So she is doing all of these things. She’s moving through these high society circles. She’s got this, this charm, this mystique. Like, we’re talking photographers seek her out to take her photograph. Like, this is the kind of human she is. And also that she is this polyglot, this, this just able to do anything that she wants really. 

She’s, she’s all of these things. But another thing, this is what surprised me in the Toto and Coco book. The author talks about how in, you know, mainstream culture, there is this kind of purity move, you know, where, you know, you don’t necessarily hoe it up. But once you hit that upper echelon, once you are in that high society, they are just letting it go. They are sleeping with anybody and everybody. 

And what they want. She has this sexual freedom about her. Like, she just like, oh, this is what we’re doing. Okay, here we go. And this is what she embodied for her life. Love this for her. 

Angie: And I don’t know why I put a me. I immediately was like, oh, she’s the young Blanche Devereux. 

Theresa: I mean, yeah, kind of. So all of this is going on. Now she ends up, she has some distinguished women and gentlemen in her little black book. Have you ever heard the woman to Lula Bankhead? 

Angie: That also sounds truly, but I couldn’t place why. 

Theresa: Okay, so she is a actress who was big during this time. But she was extremely like over the top. Like everything, like I’m going to butcher this quote, but she said something along the lines of my daddy warned me about men and alcohol, but he didn’t say anything about women or fast women and cocaine. 

Theresa: I love that. 

Theresa: Yes. So I need to do her because she is wild. 

Angie: I love this. I’ll wait here. Yeah. 

Theresa: So Toto and to Lula, they were a thing for a while and then they break up. These things happen. She also touts Randolph Churchill, son of Winston Churchill. Okay. He’s going to, he’s going to be in and out of this story. Now, one of her Paramours was a newspaper magnet named Lord Beaver Brook. Okay. 

Angie: Now that’s a name. That’s a handle right there. Lord Beaver. 

Theresa: He is kind of like the William Randolph Hearst of his time. He owns many newspapers, including England’s Daily Express, the evening standard, the Sunday Express. He’s 30 years older than she is. Listen, if he’s got a game and he loves gossip, 

Angie: that’s kind of why he’s like Leonardo DiCaprio elaborate because Leonardo DiCaprio always dates women that are like 30 years younger than him. 

Theresa: Oh, that’s what you meant by that. Okay. Yeah. So he, I was just like, Leonardo DiCaprio loves gossip. Go on. 

Angie: I’m only about to do it. I’m sure he does. I don’t know him personally, but I would have to assume. 

Theresa: So she ends up, you know, really kind of enjoying Beaver Brook’s company for many reasons. First off, he loves the gossip and he’s all about sending her out to go get some more. 

And it’s through Beaver Brook that Toto begins to gather intelligence through or on the fascist and Nazi occupation of Europe that is beginning in 34. Okay. Because she can speak all these languages. Right. Right. 

So like the perfect setup, honestly. Yeah. Um, she’s rumored you have had a Dalian, a Dalian with the son-in-law of Mussolini. Okay. Because our girl, when I say sexually free, what I mean is, oh, maybe the son-in-law of Mussolini has tea. Let me sleep with him. 

Angie: Listen, I’m not judging. We listen and we don’t judge. 

Theresa: I mean, this girl, you turn honeypot and worked it. 

Angie: If you remember Cersei saying power is power. Yeah. There you go. 

Theresa: So the one thing that is the most scandalous is she ends up at one point, her most well known affair. Okay. She ends up going to meet Lord Beaver Brook at his office and in his office is Lord Beaver Brook’s son, Max. Now Max knows who his daddy’s mistress is. He knows the name. He sees Toto walk in. He goes, she’s hot. Here’s her name. It goes, that’s dad’s side piece. And those two fall in love. 

Angie: Of course. 

Theresa: Cause why wouldn’t they? Yeah. So Max is Toto’s true love. Okay. Now when Max and Toto start to become a thing, she breaks it off with, with Lord beef. And that’s when I like how that tickled you. I saw you like choked back and giggle there. Um, at one point Max proposes to her. 

Angie: Oh, this sounds like a terrible idea. She accepts. 

Theresa: Oh, okay. Okay. And this sends Lord Beaver into a tizzy. 

Angie: Well, but yeah, excuse me. That’s my side piece. Yeah. 

Theresa: You know, um, she later, first. She later in an interview with Lord beef’s granddaughter, which the fact that that happened cracks me up, explains that she never wanted to marry anyone. Okay. 

That makes sense. Now they’re together for four years, but they never marry. Um, as Beaver Brooks said that he would offer them both lifelong pensions to not to. Oh, okay. 

Angie: So I’m just imagining that family dinner. 

Theresa: Um, there wasn’t a ton of family dinners after that came out. You know, like it was, it was as awkward as you think, like it exploded rather extravagantly. And so then he was like, I’ll pay you not to marry my son and I’ll pay you monthly until you die. Dude, can you get married and I’ll still pay you monthly. 

Angie: I would like to see the will for that is pending. He dies first. Like you still have to pay my side piece X amount of dollars for the rest of her life. Okay. Bye. 

Theresa: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t, I didn’t see the paperwork, but she, she’s like, you know what, honestly, I kind of like all of this. I didn’t think I was the marrying kind. 

I don’t think I really want kids, but I like money. And so with herself. Yeah. You know what? You just keep those checks rolling in. I’ll do what you say. We can be common law. We don’t need that piece of paper. Yeah. 

Angie: Look, all you asked is that we didn’t get married now that we stopped sleeping together. Yeah. 

Theresa: That seems pretty easy to deal with. Right. Okay. Well, they break up. Couples do. And it ends up being for like the purest of reasons. She realizes that he needs to have a child pass on the name. All the titles go down to kind of deal and she doesn’t want kids and she’s already said she won’t marry him. So she kind of breaks it off. Okay. 

Angie: And so he’s coming. He finds love. He goes and gets married. He has a kid at least. 

Theresa: And that kid ends up getting interviewed by or interviewing Toto later on. 

Angie: Oh, there’s the interview. Oh my God. 

Theresa: Yeah. That’s awesome. That is like the full circle. It’s when I’m like, oh, we got to get to that part of the story. Like how are we mentioning his last name again? 

What is the relationship here? So yeah, that was fun. That was the fun reveal in the book. 

So Toto goes on. She’s visiting friends in Florence in 1939. And this is when she falls in love with an Italian resistance leader. Okay. So she’s visiting friends in Florence and 39. And that’s when she meets in Italian resistance leader and our girl falls in love. 

Angie: I love how freely she falls in love. 

Theresa: I mean, to be fair, she is just kind of given love away. So it’s easy to find. Love that for her. So as she’s kind of falling in love with the resistance leader and seeing what Mussolini and fascism has done to the country, she tries to do what she can to support them. So she is selling furs and jewelry to his anti or for his anti fascist endeavors. 

Okay. Now she’s working for the allies because things are starting to heat up. Like at one point, the British War Office has said, we’re not hiring women to be spies. We’re civilized. We can’t trust a woman for that. And so she tells Beaverbrook like, okay, fine, don’t pay me, but I’m still going to give you this data. 

Angie: I’m still going to. I’m still collecting it. I’m going to get this tea regardless. 

Theresa: Like my 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. She ends up getting designs for a tank that the fascists are using and she’s able to sketch it out and get it to the British. Like she’s able to do some incredible things. Oh, I love this. 

Meanwhile, Beaverbrook is like, here’s your monthly allowance. You keep at it. Thank you so much. Yes. And I adore all of this, but eventually the fascists catch up with her and they catch onto what her stuff is and they capture her. Only she flees. Like, okay, but I have to actually, sorry, my notes jumped. And so I got ahead. All right. So let me let me zip back. So just, you know, you heard all of that. 

I’ll let it go. So she’s working for the allies. She’s spying on meetings of the Italian fascist party’s paramilitary wing. You know, this is where she gets the plans. 

They’re called the black shirts. She’s sending all of her intel back to England and two years later, so it’s two years of her being on this bullshit, the Italian police catch on and they sent her to remote prison. I’m glad to know she’s back on her shit. I mean, honestly, this girl, this girl, like she has such a joy and love of life that she just, you hear her like how she approaches things. 

You’re like, girl, I love this for us. Yes. So she’s going to these remote prisons and detention camps. And one of them she escapes from like literally walks out the door with no one’s looking, like realizes nobody’s paying attention and she just foshes on through. 

Angie: Because honestly, the minute you walk like you own the place, you own the place. 

Theresa: And she figured it out and she just walked out the door. Good for her. So she ends up getting to Perugia, Perugia, no matter what I say is wrong, Italy. There she ends up helping detention cap escapees find asylum while continuing to help the resistance. Now the fascists catch on to these, these, these antics of hers as well. And they capture her once more only this time. She ends up escaping to the Daniele Hotel in Venice. 

Okay. This is, this is a nice hotel apparently. And she’s just enjoying life. And then she hears words that the fascists are going, well, the Gestapo is going to do a thorough shake down of the entire building. They’ve surrounded the building. So no one’s coming in or out and they’re planning on searching every single room systematically. 

Okay. And she’s like, well, that’s, that’s not good because if she gets caught, this is going to be bad news bears. So her friend is this aristocrat. 

She goes, girl, I got you. We’re going to throw this epic dinner party. It’s going to be lovely. We’re going to get you dressed up to the nines. You’re a Baroness, Baroness of such and such. We’ll figure that out later. And then she sits her toto next to the man of honor. 

Angie: And they have it. I have really missed my calling. I’m so mad. 

Theresa: I mean, day late in the dollar short, we were born too late in life and with two big of a waste wine, but here we are. Right. And so she is having a grand old time. The Gestapo are tossing all of the rooms and nobody’s thinking to check the woman sitting immediately next to the highest ranking man at the table. 

Angie: Because why would you? 

Theresa: Exactly. Because she’s also flirtatious. 

Angie: Listen, yeah. Okay. I didn’t, why that’s shocking. Yeah. She’s having the time of her life charming this fan. Exactly. Now, okay. 

Theresa: I love all of this because the Germans never suspect her and she’s like, oh, Baroness, does something. The dinner went great. So I’m just going to bum around and go to different cafes. She’s thinking nothing of it because she just got off scot-free and she’s, she’s feeling herself, right? So she’s seated in a cafe and she’s chilling. She’s enjoying the vibe. She’s writing a letter and the Germans come in and they order everybody to remain where they are. 

Damn it. And they start going through and they realize that she’s writing in French. And they kind of think, that’s us. And so they arrest her and she has no paperwork that says she’s verinus on something. 

Angie: Oh, devastating. And so the jig is up. 

Theresa: They figure out kind of who she is and she gets sent to the Ravensbrook concentration camp. 

Angie: I really thought you were going to, like Ravensbrook was going to end up being also a hotel. 

Theresa: Yeah, no. This is not a Doris Payne scenario. Ravensbrook is like the, it is, it is just onerous, right? It is, it is one of the most notorious concentration camps. This one helps primarily women. Doctor, okay. So this is not good. 

Angie: Not for verinus on whatever. 

Theresa: Yeah. Ron Wittgenstein. 

Angie: She is now being played by Heath Ledger. 

Theresa: I honestly don’t think that would work, right? I mean, Heath Ledger was a beautiful, beautiful man, but they are very different creatures. I’ve got picks at the end of the story. Oh, I’m so excited. Okay. 

Okay. Now in Toto and Coco, and then there’s another book I read, code name Lease. I read both of them recently. They both talk about how picturesque the town that Ravensbrook is in. They said, like, as they’re getting to the place, it looked like a resort, that there’s flowers, very manicured gardens, a lake. When, if you’re not paying attention, if you’re in the camp, you can see the church tower. 

Angie: Okay. So this is definitely messing with your psyche because it looks lovely, but it is not. 

Theresa: Yeah. But once you get there, you’re like, oh, those gates slam really loud, and then it’s hell on the other side. This hellhole is Himmler’s Pride and Joy. This is the one he spends the most time at. Of course it is. I hate that guy. 

Yeah. Now, he also has a fun home in the same town. So he comes and goes when he chooses to. So she’s imprisoned at Ravensbrook. Now, this one opened in 38, and by the time it shut down in 1945, approximately 120, 132,000 female prisoners had passed through the gates, and 90,000 would die. 

Holy crap. All numbers are sketchy because when the camp was liberated, the camp overseer, I can’t remember his official title, he ends up realizing that the gig is up. And so he takes everything, like all the paperwork he can, and he flees with a prisoner that he thinks is going to be his insurance policy, and I’ll tell you that story another time, and they burn all the paperwork. 

Angie: Oh, okay. I thought you were going to say it ended up in an Argentinian basement somewhere? 

Theresa: No, because that would have been kept keeping it, and he probably wanted to bring other things with him. Now, so we truly don’t know all of the horrors that went on there. Okay. But this is what it is. Now, Himmler at one point, so one of the people who’ve worked at Ravensbrook as, or was a prisoner and was an office assistant at Ravensbrook because you all had to be contributing members of society as we slowly kill you, they noted that they saw a paper on the camp director’s desk, and it said, it was from Himmler, and it said, 2000 women needed to die every month to be on track. 

Angie: Good Lord. On track for what? The spreadsheet. 

Theresa: Now, we got to remember, Toto, she is a bisexual, mixed race, resistance fighter. 

Angie: She is wearing all the badges in this camp. 

Theresa: I mean, honestly, she’s picking them up and playing them like Pokemon cards at this point. Yeah, okay. Now, after just a couple months of poor sleep, grueling work, and super harsh conditions, Toto is losing weight. She doesn’t have a ton to start with. 

Angie: She’s a model. I can imagine she’s very small to begin with. 

Theresa: She would end up getting down to 70 pounds. Oh my God. Good Lord. So, she ends up, she’s talking about how the camp itself, when you got there, she said she grew incredibly rise, learning that when you’re in line for soup, you want to be last, because this ensures that you get a better meal, because the vats of soup aren’t stirred. And so, if you’re last, you’ll get some of the fiber, some of the scrapings of onions, some of the whatever paltry bits were put in there. Okay. And that is a really awful thing to have that knowledge hard one. 

Yeah. Now, the work detail is brutal. Some days they’re doing things like repairing potholes. Other days, they’re mixing their own excrement in the still warm ash and bones from the crematorium. This is to make fertilizer for the gardens and vegetables that she never saw. 

Okay. Now, she ends up surviving the camp just on her wits. At one point, she realizes that she’s not going to make it if she keeps doing work detail. She’s watching how hard this is. She’s watching the women die around her. She’s like, I’m not going to make it. So, she lies and she tells the guards in perfect German, but she’s a trained nurse. 

She was trained in Britain. Oh, okay. There’s no way to call and check because you’re kind of at war with them. You can’t validate her credits. So, she ends up starting working at the infirmary. And in the infirmary, she is sneaking food to hospitalized patients. She’s trying to do her best to heal them. She’s also learning like women that were destined for the gas chambers because they were not doing so hot. She would hide them in the hospital’s laboratory, Brock, or she falsified their medical records. Like, she did everything she could if she thought you had a chance to make it to give you extra time. God bless her. 

Oh, my gosh. In the camps or in the camp because she was only in the one, she organized a fashion show as a distraction where all the women wear the stuff that they have, the meager uniform they’ve got. And then she talked very honestly about her fashion work in Paris and Milan, just for a distraction, just to help everybody else kind of disappear from the camp for a couple mental moments. 

Angie: That takes the amount of like, not only leadership, but like just the humanity in that moment. Like, we are in the worst possible situation, but there was this time in Milan. 

Let me tell you about Milan. Like, that gives hope when there is absolutely none, right? And for those few minutes, I am sure those were life-saving minutes for those women. For her. Yeah. Wow. 

Theresa: And then she receives word that she’s going to be forcibly sterilized. 

Angie: Of course. I wondered when that was going to come into play. Mm-hmm. 

Theresa: Yeah. It was with dirty needles, not switched out between patients, and there was no painkillers. Of course. So, it’s awful. She is miserable. And that’s when some of the camp is liberated when the Swedish Red Cross’s vice president, Count Folk Bernadotte, convinces the Nazi commander in chief, Heinrich Himmler, to release 7,500 women. 

Kupman’s one of them. Okay. So, she gets out in that wave. She’s described as slender-framed, shriveled, her head shaved, her body ravaged from medical experimentation. She’d been in Ravensbrook seven months. 

Oh, my God. Now, when the her and the other prisoners were driving to Sweden, they passed a field of green grass, and she asked to stop the van. And the other women who hadn’t seen grass in two years, ran through the grass and peed, marveling at the feeling. Just to get, they had to relieve themselves in the open field anyhow, right? But they wanted to go into the field to feel the 

Theresa: grass, to like, you know, we got a peony. Touch grass. Well, enjoy it. Yeah, to have that stop. 

Theresa: So, once she is safe in Sweden and, you know, in safety, Randolph Churchill sends her a care package. She sends her a couple of things. The bulk of the package is onions and garlic. He knows that she has been like just in the worst of it. And she’s probably fighting quite a bit of things. And he knows the healing medicinal properties of onions and garlic. 

Theresa: But both, right? Yeah. So he’s like, look, eat tons of these things, soups, broth, whatever you can do. 

Theresa: Get a lot of this in your system to help it clean out your blood. He also sends wigs, knowing that she had her head shaved. That is such a baller move. I know. 

It is such a lovely, caring move. He shows up in person. He’s got money. He’s got clothes. And he’s got another wig. He is shocked at how much she’s wasted away. The clothes he bought, they don’t fit. They have to safety pin them so that she can wear them so they can go have dinner. Oh my God. 

Angie: I’m devastated for her. Like, you know, you always have, this is going to sound so stupid, but you always imagine rich people to be sort of out of it or out of touch. 

Yeah, out of touch. And his very human, like, I will buy my friend a dress. I will buy my friend a wig and I will take my friend to lunch. And to just do that kind of reminds you that we are all in fact human. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe one of us is drinking Avion and the other isn’t. But still. Wrong. Oh, I love him. Good for him. 

Theresa: So because of Beaver Brook, because he’s in the picture still, and the Red Cross, Coopman is able to settle in Switzerland in this place called Ascona. And Beaver Brook ends up like first off Churchill, Randolph Churchill ends up giving her like a huge chunk of money. Beaver Brook is like, Hey, I owe you back pay. So here’s a good chunk of money as well. And then your payments are going to continue monthly because. 

That’s what I promise. And then in 1945, she meets Erica Brosson. And Brosson is a London Gallerist who she’d been involved in the resistance to in Coco and Toto and Toto and Coco, sorry. They go a little bit deeper into her background. She, I think she was born to German parents. And then she moves away from German or Germany. And at some point she ends up joining the resistance and helping out in her own way. 

Okay. And so then like she ends up kind of when she ends up living in Switzerland after the war. And she’s in the same group as Toto. And they don’t remember meeting each other because they just, they were in the same group. They just always kind of, and then she kind of hears a little bit about Toto’s seven months then in Ravensbrook and what she had to do and to, you know, to survive. And that’s when she’s like, Oh, you poor thing. 

And so then they kind of come together. And the girlfriend, what’s your name? Oh, Erica. Sorry, I forgot her name. She ends up kind of taking like a mothering role as well as kind of like, had a big crush on her and trying to nurse her back to health. 

Okay. Now, Erica had worked in London’s Redfin Gallery and she was set on opening a space of her own. So she in doing this kind of tells Toto her idea and they open what is, I guess, a now iconic gallery called the Hanover Gallery in London. It became famous because it was the first gallery to feature Francis Beacon. Is it Beacon or Bacon? 

Angie: Okay. Like Sir Francis Bacon? Like the modern artist? I have to google it now because I’m thinking it’s going to be very different. 

Theresa: That’s what, that’s where my brain went to. I’ll hit you back. Okay. So with Browster’s Eye and the Cootman’s Connections, the gallery just flourishes because when the gallery is going to like launch the first time before Francis Beacon does this bit, Toto knows everybody of notes. So she’s like handwriting invitations. 

Theresa: It’s Bacon. Is it Bacon? Okay. Oh, it’s this guy. 

Angie: His work is nuts. Okay. Sorry. Carry on. Mm-hmm. He does a lot of religious like iconography, but make it modern and really moody. Okay. Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t equate. I’ve seen later versions of his work more than I’ve seen his work. Got it. Yeah. Okay. 

Theresa: So either way, Toto, Erica, like when this gallery’s launching, Erica’s like, or Toto’s like, hey, I know like all the royalty, all the who’s who of society. So I’m just going to hand write invitations to them. So we can get Randolph Churchill there. So we can get Lord Beaver Brooks. 

So we can get members of the aristocracy and nobility to like show up, grace us with their presence. So it is like taking off, right? So that’s kind of what they do to kind of really make this go. So the gallery is not just the art. It’s, or the lure of the gallery at the time is not just the art. It’s because they have this open relationship in a time where homosexuality is very, very illegal because that’s not legitimized until 1967. So these two are considered kind of a curiosity that society just kind of deals with and tolerates. Right. 

Okay. Now, they are very, like they live very openly with each other. Toto takes tons of lovers with her relationship and that kind of hurts Erica’s feelings. Towards the end of Toto’s life, Erica becomes more controlling. And at one point, Erica starts going through some sort of mental decline and Toto takes care of her. Well, that’s all well and good until Toto has a stroke and breaks her hip. Oh, okay. And so now, Erica in the middle of decline is supposed to be caring for Toto and no longer has the capacity or bandwidth to do so. Oh, okay. And the doctors are saying things like, you know, make sure she gets friendship and fresh air. So Erica says, got it. Dark room. Nothing. No interaction. Like won’t let people in. And when Toto dies. 

Angie: Because she genuinely probably thinks that’s 

Theresa: probably what she feels she needs, right? So I’m sure she’s doing the right thing by her. But anyhow, Toto dies. But dies in like 91. Nice. Yeah. Okay. She survived quite a long time. Brossan dies 18 months later. 

Okay. So I’m assuming they had, you know, like she was probably very heartbroken that Toto died. Because this was someone she loved. Toto had affection for her, but she doesn’t, from what I’ve read, it doesn’t seem that she had as much affection as she did for Max Beaverbrook. Right. 

Angie: Okay. Yeah. He was the man. He was her one. To be able to be like, ah, yo, daddy. 

Theresa: He could really put it down. You know what I mean? Like just the conversations those two had where the daughter probably didn’t want to know what she knew. Thanks. 

Angie: I’m going to go bleach my eyes. Yeah. It’s like, mm. 

Theresa: I once saw that man run to the bathroom without a towel. I can’t then see that. Thanks though. 

Angie: Great for you. Love that you chose that. Yeah. 

Theresa: Um, but up until Toto’s death, she remained a wild spirit and she did everything to the hilt in her own way and was absolutely incredible. And I had to tell you her story because it was insane. 

Angie: I am forever indebted to your, to show. Oh my God. She’s gorgeous. Um, okay. So in her, I can’t quite tell what she’s wearing in the first picture, but it’s like, um, It looks like just a necklace. Truly. That’s what I was thinking. 

Okay. I couldn’t tell if the necklace was attached to like a lower gown, but it looks like just the necklace. She’s got the super thin eyebrows of the time, flicked back hair. Very, yes, definitely model in the next portrait. She is looking up towards the light in absolutely angelic. Absolutely a stunning human being. Okay. I’ve seen this image before. Yeah. 

Theresa: Like I’d seen that image. Didn’t know who it was. Yeah. 

Angie: Okay. So she’s, she’s, this is definitely a Vogue shot. She is walking down the stairs away from the bust of a statue. Um, and her gown is filling out the stairs, like flowing down the stairs with her. It’s, you’ve seen this, I promise. If you’re listening to this podcast, you’ve seen this picture. 

Theresa: Yeah. You don’t know that you’ve seen it, but we’ll show it to you. You’ll be like, Oh, that one. Yeah. Absolutely. That is the story of the first famous biracial model who coincidentally was also a spy. 

Angie: Um, I will never, ever get over biracial models who are coincidentally also spies. That, that being said, um, yeah, I’ll never get over the amount of different walks of life and people that become resistance fighters in World War II. Like ever. That’s phenomenal. Thanks for that. Might be one of my favorite stories of yours. 

Theresa: The story that I’m biting my time on, Trump’s it. 

Angie: I also have a story that I’ve been biting my time on and I am so excited. I’m hoping to share in the next two weeks. Very excited. Do we even have time for this story? I mean, how long is your story? 

Theresa: Normal. I don’t mind waiting. I mean, okay. So. Cause I could sit here and talk about models being World War II resistance fighters for the rest of my life. 

Theresa: I mean, honestly, it’s, it’s all the rage. Like all the rage. We could do it. I say, let’s go ahead and do it. Cause I, my story wasn’t quite long enough. Like it. Yeah. We had a lot of fun with it, but I, I don’t know. Okay. 

Angie: I mean, like I’m happy to tell you my story. Please. Okay. Give me just one second to get my act together. Okay. There are my notes. Um, okay. So I am going to like, preface my story with kind of a weird statement. Maybe it won’t be weird. It feels weird to me. Um, I have spent the last several weeks kind of in this, uh, learning space of discovering other genders, um, from a not Judeo-Christian worldview. Okay. Does that make sense? 

Theresa: Yeah. I feel, okay. So let me, let me unpack what I feel like you’re saying. And here’s where you can jump in my, my shit with both feet if I’m wrong. Um, having grown up. And doctorated in the church and everything that it stands for, we were given a very binary view as opposed to a biological view, the biological view saying, sure, there’s two chromosomes, but they don’t combine in X, X, X, Y. There’s a surprising array in which those things occur. And because those occur so chaotically in nature, it also manifests in our brains and how those are, how those manifest. Like it manifests in the way we present ourselves and how we identify. 

Angie: Yes. Um, so yes, you nailed that. And then additionally, how again, moving aside this Western Judeo-Christian mindset, um, like just not putting it on the back burner, but like just putting it a little to the left, we also have a cultural understanding that is, can be very different depending on where you’re at. Right? Yeah. 

Um, okay. So I had heard of my story a long time ago and like they’ve been on my list for some time, but recently I came to the understanding that there was more to unpack and more involved in their story than I had previously thought. So I was like, this is kind of the perfect story for where, for the things I’ve been learning right now. 

Um, so I definitely want to share it. That being said, my character, who I will give you my sources and all that for just a minute was born in West Central Africa in the 1500s. That being said, I do not know if it is appropriate to put any modern labels on them. Um, like as in modern pronouns, like they, she, them, I think from everything that I have read about this individual, she would have been, would have been chosen just because it’s like Lieutenant Nunn. 

Theresa: Yes. She very much, as she, and then later as he, and then as she very fluid in how they viewed themselves. Yes. 

Angie: And I don’t think in her culture, it mattered one way or the other. If I’m going to be completely honest, I think with her station and with her situation, she did what was necessary for what was necessary. Does that make sense? Like I feel, I feel like it just needed that. What’s the word I’m looking for? Warning. Yeah. Okay. So that being said, my sources are blackhistorymonth.org UK, um, Queen in Zinghamonbondi, the unyielding beacon of resistance and sovereignty. 

Theresa: Oh my gosh. We’re, oh, okay. Are you ready to mention her name? I am here for this. Okay. 

Angie: So my other source is blackpast.org and, um, I have a few other sources that I added, but I didn’t actually use anything with, but I, like there are works, so I wanted to make sure that that was here just for funsies, you know. 

Okay. Um, but the other one that the bulk of my story comes from is a delightful website called makingqueerhistory.com. Now, I’m not so sure that she would classify herself as quote queer. 

However, there, she has made the list for this website and they’ve done a phenomenal job of putting together the information about her life and what it would have looked like. Okay. So this story is a doozy. I’m so glad we started with yours because in a wild way, they’re not very, uh, definitely not very the same, but very along the same lines of hot dog girl get it. Okay. 

Theresa: But I suddenly felt bad. Like maybe I should have been a pallet cleanser, which is not a thing I think of. 

Angie: I know that’s weird. You don’t need to be the pallet cleanser this time, but like when you told me your story, I went, oh my God, we should have swapped. Not in a bad way. 

Theresa: Um, are you saying a very Teresa coded story? 

Angie: There’s some Teresa coded moments in this story. 

Theresa: I’m here for it. Tell me about my foremother. Okay. 

Angie: So during the, so like here’s the back story during the latter part of the 16th century, we are dealing with the French and English, both sort of threatening the Portuguese who at the moment have this monopoly on sources and, um, area in the West African coast. And, um, one of their biggest exports is slaves. 

Oh, so just keep that in your noodle mug. And, um, there is actually a Netflix document docu series that is, um, narrated by Jada Pickett Smith called the African Queens and season two is all about in Zynga. Oh, and they mentioned that. In the very beginning of the episode that the Portuguese are looking to move as many African slaves as they can to Brazil, to Brazil to help with their sugar manufacturing. So this is kind of a thing for the Portuguese. 

And so they are looking to push more inland and, you know, just expand their empire, if you will, like they’re trying to diversify. I couldn’t think of any other word than that. 

Theresa: I mean, so these modern words make sense. Right. 

Angie: Um, by 1580, they’ve already established a trading relationship with Afonso, the first in the nearby Congo kingdom. And then they turn their eyes to Angola. And that’s where our story starts. So in Zynga, she’s born around 1583 to the Nongola, which translates to King. And I’m going to butcher his first name, but I’m going to try really hard. I believe it is pronounced Kalangi, but no matter how many times I listen to it, I could not get it to come out of my mouth the right way. And we actually know her mother’s name. Candela. 

And from what we know of her, she was actually formerly a slave that had been brought into their tribe and rose to be the king’s favorite consort. This is giving Fred again. Right. Um, very little is known about in Zynga’s childhood, other than she was born with her umbilical cord wrapped around her throat and her mother said that is a sign of her coming greatness. Cause apparently in this culture and in this time, when you have survived a traumatic birthing experience, you are destined to be something. And I just think that’s really pretty fantastic. Yeah. 

If I’m honest, right? Um, because their society has this like lines passed through the matriarchy, but because there is a king that rules her, her life as what we would consider a princess is very much that she is doted on by her father likely because she would never have been seen as a threat to her brothers. Now I’m just going to give a little disclaimer here that Zynga’s story is huge. It’s big. 

It’s a whole, it’s a whole thing. So I am giving you a very gross over simplification of her life and I would encourage anybody that finds anything that I say today interesting to do a deep dive on her because there’s a lot. I would have been here for 13 days trying to tell you the whole story. Um, but I think that’s about all like, that’s the story of a lot of our characters. Right. 

Like we could probably go on for ages. Um, so anyway, she is doted on by her dad in all the ways. She is raised in matters of diplomacy. She’s taught statecraft. She’s taught battle. She can speak multiple languages. So like all the things. Yeah. And dad has no problem with this because again, he is probably doing it from the perspective of she is not going to be a threat to any of her brothers because one of them is going to take over one. 

I die. That’s at least the understanding that we have today. However, during this upbringing, we’re also dealing with the Portuguese being at their doorstep and a lot of, you know, traumatic moments and infighting and dad loses a lot of battles, just trying to keep the Portuguese at bay. Um, so you can imagine that this, this is what she is growing up in. So she is seeing all of this and she is being trained in the diplomacy of all of this. And it’s safe to say now that she was far better than any of her brothers at all. Nice. 

Theresa: So we have that. Love when like the best equipped one is the one prepared to take it. Right. 

Angie: Um, so it’s 1617. Her father, like one of the things that Portugal does to gain dominance over the area and over their nation, um, they, they’re sending mercenaries in, like they’re doing all of, they’re pulling all the tricks out of their sleeve to help get the Portuguese mindset in like kind of just subjugate her people. And her father constantly fights against every one of these things because that’s not how we do this, man. Like leave us alone. 

Right. Um, unfortunately by 1617, he loses a series of battles with the Portuguese and as a result, he’s killed by his own people, which big bar, but now her brother having seen that she was favored by dad. This presents problems for him when he becomes the new Angola. His name is Mubande and he sees her as a direct threat, regardless of what dad said. In fact, he pretty much sees everybody as a threat and in a bid to secure the throne for himself, he kills everyone he thinks could be a problem. That means relatives, other members of his court, including in Zingas own son. 

And while he lets in Zingas and her sisters live, he ensures that they will not continue to bear children and has them sterilized. Oh my. And I’m, there’s two things I’m unclear about. I’m, I’m, she was about 30, around 30 to 35 at this time when her son was murdered. And I’m unclear of who the father was. 

Like I can’t find any information on that. I don’t even know if it’s out there, but I thought that was first of all horrible on her brother’s part. Second of all, I have recently read how that could have been done to sterilize a woman in West Central Africa in the 1600s. And I can’t imagine she went to this easily. You’re not sharing with the class, right? 

Theresa: I’m not going to share with the class. Okay. Please. And thank you. Cause I held back for you. Yeah. 

Angie: I, I’m not sure how right my sources were on it, and nor do I want to share it with the class. If you’re interested, go by all means, Google it yourself. I’m, I’m not here to be the Debbie Downer. 

Um, but the gist of it is generally people are not a fan of his work and they believe him to be more or less a puppet of the colonial powers and overall a weakling. 

Theresa: I mean, typically if you need to exert that much force. Right. 

Angie: And so they’re not a fan. Um, however, when he gets in over his head with the Portuguese, she still shows up despite the obvious issues between them in 1622 to negotiate with the Portuguese for the release of her people. Now, arriving at this meeting, the Portuguese, they, they’ve sort of set up this, this space, like I don’t know if it’s an office space or what they might consider just receiving area, but there is one seat in the room and the Portuguese diplomat is sitting in it. And there is basically like a mat on the floor. 

Theresa: I know this part of the story. Carry on. I’m excited. 

Angie: Um, our girl immediately sees this as a massive power and balance and won’t be having none of that. So Black History Month has a great quote saying, in an era when African leaders were often demeaned by European colonizers in Zingas refusal to, to accept a subservient position, opting to sit on the back of one of her attendants rather than on the floor was a powerful act of defiance. This encounter epitomized her refusal to be diminished by colonial powers and marked the beginning of her legendary resistance. 

Theresa: I mean, when I heard that, my response was, oh, you have to sit in a chair. You don’t have a man for that. That’s silly. I know. 

Angie: One of the things that I think is really interesting, because when I was first thinking about this scene, I was like, I wonder if her attendant was like, oh crap. 

Theresa: It’s Tuesday. 

Angie: Damn it. Right. Yeah. I knew this was going to happen. But one of the things that I read like across the board about her is that her people adored her. One comment made suggested, this was from a Dutch traveler coming through the area, suggested that when she walked by, that people fell to the ground and kissed it. So my initial thought of like, oh, it’s Tuesday. Maybe this attendant really was like, oh, allow me. I would love to be your seat for the day. 

Theresa: She sat on me, guys. Sat on me for the entire meeting. These arms, they still ache. 

Angie: I can’t feel them. 

Theresa: And you know what? That’s best day ever. Workman’s comp has never been more incredible than this. 

Angie: Loving this. I gotta go home and tell my mom. So our girl, Nzinga, she’s like not phased by this at all. And she spends the whole meeting sitting like that. Not only that, but she walks out of the meeting having negotiated her brother’s freedom as well. So the freedom of the people. 

Theresa: The same brother who did her dirty. Yeah. 

Angie: And I’m a little unclear, right? So her sources, like her story is murky in a lot of places, but I’m, a lot of the other sources did not suggest her brother was captured. But this one did. And either way, whether he was or not is really relevant because she got what she came for. She got the release of her people. Whether her brother was included or not. 

Theresa: Shortly after. You can keep all but one. I mean, like I’ll take that one. Yeah. Yeah. Leave Larry. But everybody else. The Red. You’re coming with me. 

Angie: Red Rover, Red Rover. Send everyone but him over. Yeah. 

Theresa: Oh, you can go. He came anyhow. All right. That’s fine. That’s fine. Whatever. I get it. It’s awkward to get him now. 

Angie: Because we have to. The plate’s already set. So. So regardless though, soon after this event, her brother dies mysteriously. Oh, no. A lot of sources suggest suicide. Okay. So she immediately takes his place as the Nugola. And up to this point, there hasn’t been a record found suggesting another female ruler of the Andonga before her. At this point, a couple of really metal stories come out. One suggests that she would have eaten the hearts of her brother’s family after he died, just to make a point. I’m unclear if that’s true, but I really like the visual it gave you. 

Theresa: It is incredibly dark, but it’s some good lore. Right. 

Angie: Like if the neighborhood kids are saying that about me. Okay. 

Theresa: I’m here for it. You know, honestly, just own it at that point. Right. 

Angie: They also suggest that she may have drank the blood of decapitated slaves before battle. I’m unclear if either of those are true, but I am here for either one of them, and I’m choosing to believe it. They sound like just good lore. 

Theresa: You know what I mean? Definitely. Like they’ve got all of the earmarks of this is made up. This is some creepy pasta. 

Angie: I feel like what happened was the Dutch traveler that was coming through sort of heard rumors and was like, oh, we got to sell those story peeps. Yeah. 

Theresa: Honestly, this is a, yeah, these people scare me anyhow. If you tell me that, you know, she’s a monster and she’s got an elbow in the middle of her forehead, I’m going to buy it. Yeah. 

Angie: Sure. Let’s go. I believe it. What we do know for sure about her reign is that it’s characterized by her, a depth use of both diplomacy and military tactics. She understands the importance of a good alliance. So she, in a bid to support, like she suits, excuse me, she wants the support of other African states and other European powers that are also opposed to Portugal. So like she knew what was up and she was talking to the right people. At one point she also converts to Christianity and a strategic marriage alliance as part of her diplomatic efforts to build this big coalition against the Portuguese. Because her goal is to eliminate the Portuguese control of her people by any means necessary, like get them off my lawn. Now, this is the part that I, that I just recently learned and was like, I am so glad I waited to tell her story because not all of the sources freely share this information. It should be said that the translation of Ningola, Nngola comes out to be just king. 

There is no word for queen. This is also how in Zingha reacted to the situation. She dressed in the traditionally masculine clothing, as well as collecting the hair of women. She called consorts. These consorts were all assigned male at birth. 

However, they chose to dress in the traditional feminine clothing of their time. Wow. Okay. 

Right. So one of the things that I learned over the last weeks is there are these cultures that have this sort of revered group of men who choose to be the feminine, to take on the feminine role. And that can exist within any culture and within any society, but it’s always this like fringe area. And it was very real among her people. And they would have called them, when they, you know, over of their appropriate age, they would have called them grandmother. Like it was just accepted. So I think for her to take on the role of the king and dress traditionally as the king and have this harem of consorts of men that were dressed as women just made sense. 

It wasn’t like how we would see it today, I think. I think for them, this is just what you do. This is the situation. 

This is how you are. Supposedly, and I don’t know how true this is, but I love it, these consorts and any other perspective lovers would have to fight to the death before giving the opportunity to sleep with her. I think again, the Dutch travelers probably having a great time. 

Theresa: Yeah, that sounds a bit hardcore. That sounds like, and then we’re going to tell, you know what, there used to be more of this, but the sleep, 

Angie: but they’re going to fight to the death. And then you die afterwards. You get murdered afterwards because of what you did. 

Theresa: Yeah, I mean, honestly. So we have a punch card. As soon as we finish our number of mating times, you know, then we’re out of curtains. Yeah, we got to make room for somebody else. 

Angie: I don’t think that part’s true at all because she did have a harem of consorts. So I think they got to survive. But either way, metal is hell. Going back to when I mentioned earlier, her becoming Christian, queer history has this great quote. They say, using flattery and smooth talking to manipulate the Portuguese, she allows herself to be baptized and uses the name Donna Anna de Souza for a period of time. 

Now this is relevant. PsyQuest, the Christian name she chooses was in honor of her godparents, the Portuguese governor, Jojo Correia de Souza and his wife. This is super relevant to my story because that is the same man who wouldn’t give her a seat at the table. 

Serves us for Godfather when she is baptized. Right? Right. You can imagine though, still the relationship between the two nations is not easy. There’s a lot of infighting. There’s a lot of disagreement as to what either one is willing to give up for peace. 

And as the tensions start to rise and the good feelings start to dwindle, Ninzinga is eventually forced to just outright like full frontal fight the Portuguese. But this is an opportunity for us to see her competence as not only a diplomatic leader, but a military leader. She lost many battles, but through this her acclaim, like it grows both in her region and in Europe. At one point she’s exiled, but she takes this time to consolidate power and continues to build this expansive reputation. And I think at this point she also reverts back to her own ancestral religion. 

She doesn’t take on the continue wearing the name, although at some point she probably would again, right? What is apparent from her reign is that we know she was known for sure for placing women in positions of power, granting freedom to slaves, and she gathered other exiles, like not just her own people, but others that are being having these problems with the Portuguese. Like she’s creating a safe haven for them. 

Big fan for her work. She is also a big proponent of guerrilla war with the Portuguese. She’d be conducting, like she herself would be conducting hit and run attacks on Portuguese settlements and like their supply lines. 

And this absolutely disrupts the Portuguese and all of their operations. And I just loved this for her. She makes inroads with the Dutch as well as the Kingdom of the Congo, who we had just briefly mentioned at the beginning, who was sort of dealing with this before when she was a child, right? 

I had already mentioned this, but I loved this quote. Black History Month says that Inzinga also provided sanctuaries to runaway slaves and soldiers, which not only weakens the Portuguese economic interests, but also strengthens her own forces. Her capital, which is in Latamba, becomes a refuge for those fleeing all sorts of brutality from slavery. And this is embodying her vision of a sovereign and united African resistance against colonialism. Like the fact that she saw this, like if we band together, we can do this. We can kick out the colonizers. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. 

Right. Now, while she’s working to expand her rule and territory, she is also posing this real threat to the Portuguese. So they tried to replace her with a puppet ruler, but like her brother, he’s unpopular. Now remember, she’s still in exile, but she is still a problem for them. 

Like to no end. She is out to pese these people off a left and right. She was willing to negotiate on slave trade, which happened to be at the time a sticking point negotiations. But for them, what was the real big deal was her refusal to come back to Christianity because at the time that was the rage, right? Like you become a Christian and you stay Christian. That’s that. Like we can’t deal with anything else. The Pope said you have to be Christian. 

Theresa: Yes. No, no, I’m, I’m getting ready to pull my multi-tool to go back to my embroidery. 

Angie: Oh, I thought you were going to ask a very, very pointed question about the Pope. 

Theresa: No, I haven’t answered. Okay. Apparently the pointed question face and the I need to use brute force are the same face. Love this for us. 

Angie: She does make her way back to her throne and her ally ship swaps from the Dutch to the Portuguese at this point because problems are problems and you just have to solve them. She does return to Christianity and she rules in peace for the next 40 years. She dies in 1663, aged 81, 80 years old. Now, though her death, right? Marks the end of the era. Her legacy still is on. She’s remembered as a skilled negotiator, a fearless warrior and a visionary leader who tirelessly fought for the autonomy and dignity of her people. 

I love this quote. I cannot remember what source I got it from, but they said in Zingar managed to preserve and dungle independence for a generation. Indeed, it was not until the early 20th century that the Portuguese finally broke in blue resistance. 

So they fought over this until the 20th century. She was a 17th century ruler. Can like my brain was like, yes, 17th century wasn’t the 1500s. Would that be 16? She was born in the 1500s, but her reign was in the 1600s. Oh, thank you for that. You’re welcome. One of us, I was paying attention and the other one of us simultaneously is the same person can’t say the river times. 

Theresa: It’s not that I’m bad with dates. I just fail to say them out loud accurately. They’re correct in here. It’s just once they leave this mouthgate, they’re all jumbled. 

Angie: They’re not my responsibility anymore after that. 

Theresa: Yeah. I held their hand up to the lips. That’s where they all fall short. 

Angie: Now, one of the things that I learned in like my compulsively gathering facts about her is that there is a connection today, and I’m hoping I’m going to pronounce her woman right. Diamtii Kabbatsulia is the traditional monarch of the Bacua Luntu people in the kingdom of Luba, situated in the southern region of the DRC. She is called the Woman King by her people today, and she is fabulous. 

Absolutely fabulous. I probably spent way more time looking at her website than I should have, trying to learn about in Zynga. That’s my story. 

That’s my girl. I do have a couple of pictures. Please, thank you. In case you just need a visual. Because I love maps, I needed you to be able to see how close their kingdoms are in Zynga and Diamtii. 

Theresa: Okay, so I’m seeing a map. We’ve got Madagascar off to the right. This just helps you orient. So, you know, we’re close to South Africa. Where am I supposed to be looking at the bright dot? 

Angie: Okay, so Ndongo is right here on the central western coast. Okay. Can you see my arrows? Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. I can. So, there’s in Zynga’s kingdom, and this is the kingdom of Diamtii today. So, they’re not, oh, right here. They’re not far from each other. 

Theresa: So, Central Africa, but still. It’s like the coast of California versus the border between California and Nevada. Yep. 

Angie: That is actually the exact same visual. Well done. And this is the historical image of what they say in Zynga looks like. 

Theresa: Okay, so she is showing me an incredibly beautiful black woman with hair, wore natural. She’s got a hat that is, it looks both European royal and also like a strawberry in the same breath. Yeah, it does. 

Angie: An inverted strawberry. She’s wearing it in the hat, but it’s got a gold. 

Theresa: Yeah, she’s got like a flared gold crown, and then she’s got this strawberry embroidered strawberry on top of it. And then there’s little blue feathers on top of that. It’s really striking, despite me calling it a strawberry. Like, that is just, I’m trying to paint a picture and I’m really making it sound awful. 

Angie: And then she has like. 

Theresa: No, I think you’re first stole and a bejeweled brooch holding it together with a bit of green cloth over lay down on top of it. And then she’s wearing a blue beaded necklace. She is striking. Right. 

Angie: I, so I had seen this picture a long time ago, and this is kind of how I discovered her. But I so glad I waited because I was really hoping I could find a really special individual to share for the month of June. Like, not that they’re all not special, but you know what I mean? Like, her story really stuck out to me. 

Theresa: Like, okay, do you remember when we did Stonewall and I made the mention of the acid dealing bartender Maggie Jigs? Yeah. I spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to find more about her and came up empty handed. Bump kiss. And I so wanted to tell the story of that individual because that one liner, right? Yes. So that’s, she wasn’t boring. Yeah. So to hear about new, how do I say her name again? 

You’re in Zynga in Zynga. Like I’d heard about the servant sitting story and I was like, hell yes, but that’s truly all I knew. I knew she was a badass. I knew that she did that. And I was like, there’s more to it. And then I was like, oh, look, something shiny. Oh, I’m hungry. Do we have cheese? Like that was like my internal monologue. 

Angie: The story of my life, honestly, every single day. But I was so glad to like learn what I learned about her and her. I don’t even want to call it sexuality because I think it was just her, her situation ship. Like, yeah, I mean, the politics, yeah, it kind of opens your eyes to a whole other set of understanding outside of what like we just know to be I’m, I’m bi or I’m gay or I’m straight or any of these things, right? 

Like in places, there are still culturally different ideas. And I think that’s really why I wanted to highlight her. And I think that that’s, it’s impressive. 

And I loved knowing she had a hair movement because, you know, honestly, good for her, good for her. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I still better have better hair than all of them. But here we are. 

Theresa: That’s just, I mean, look, that’s good for you to know. And that’s, that’s the standards you need. And I’m here for it. And I, I’m stoked you brought her to me because I would have gotten to her eventually, right? But not soon enough. 

Angie: I’m glad we had on the same day. This is what I was saying. I’m glad we had on the same day, the these two just amazing bad ass women who lived very different lives, but probably would have been best friends in real life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I see your girl driving down the street with Ms. Barker in her pink champagne. 

Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. Her champagne or her gas or petro filled champagne bottles that she makes her way out of the country. Scarfs blowing in the wind. So if you’re wondering, if next week we’ll bring up a World War II spy, probably, because chances are high, you know, incredible women that you should emulate, then rate, review, subscribe, share us with your favorite veterinarian because they don’t get enough love. 

Angie: I swear to you for your favorite friend who’s back you want to sit on. Yeah. You know, let them guess which one they are. They could be one in the same. 

Theresa: Well done. And on that note, goodbye. 

Theresa: Bye.