Listen to the episode here.

Today’s mash-up of stories leads to some very unexpected places as Angie shares the story of Belle da Costa Greene. Belle ends up being the first Black female librarian of Mr. J. P. Morgan. This woman ends up being the Pepper Potts to Morgan, as she controls art and literature that gets bought and added to his personal collection.

Then, surprising no one, Theresa takes us in a very different direction as she recounts the tale of York, the Black man who accompanied Lewis and Clark on the expedition across the newly purchased land of the Louisiana Purchase. Like anyone who experiences travel, his trek changes him and gives him a sense of accomplishment, forever altering the power dynamic between him and his owner, William Clark.

This episode pairs well with:

Alice Roosevelt
Sacagawea

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhand History Podcast. The podcast where two compulsive nut jobs are weekly going to mainline all the history we can get on super niche, ultra specific things, and then join forces and info’d up on the friend. And you’re tuning in to listen like the mental waste management human that you are. Welcome. I’m host one, I’m Teresa, and that is host two.

Angie: I’m Angie, and I see you as a person wearing a neon orange vest.

Theresa: Wow. Hi, Viz, what we have to do. Yellow and orange is the colors of the year.

Theresa: Many blessings to you. Wave by to that millennial beige. Bye beige. Okay, I should have looked to see who goes first.

Angie: Actually, I feel like it’s me because you went first last, you went whole last time.

Theresa: I am so lost because I know I listened to the most recently published. It’s you because I did go whole last time. Hot diggity. I like this. Hot diggity dog.

Angie: Well then, let’s go, I suppose. Let me hit you with my sources. Bell Bacosta Green, the Morgan’s first librarian and director, the Morgan Library and Museum. The trailblazing black librarian who rewrote the rules of power, gender, and racial passing by Deborah Parker, a 2025 article. This was from the Smithsonian. The Morgan Library celebrates its first ever librarian, a black woman. It’s an NPR article. And African American registry had a little ditty on Bella Dacosta Green called Librarian Born. I wish that was pretty cool. So if I haven’t made it abundantly clear already, I am telling you about the Morgan’s first librarian.

Theresa: Now, who are the Morgan’s? I’m assuming it’s not the horse breed. JP Morgan. Oh, that makes a lot more sense. Why did I not go to that? And why did I go to a specific breed of horse? Because you’re a horse girl. I am not a horse girl. I’m a horse girl mom. Well, anything. I am learning where in the barn the poo gets piled as opposed to dictating where it goes. Yes, yes, yes.

Angie: So our girl, Belle Dacosta Green was born Bell Marion Greener on December 13, 1883. However, according to the Wikipedia article, her biographer, the book itself is called An Illuminated Life. It’s by Heidi Arionesi. I’m going to say this wrong. A-R-D-I-Z-Z-O-N-E.

Theresa: Is it bad that when you said I’m going to say this wrong, I wanted to interrupt you and be like you already did?

Angie: I did. Yeah, I did. I can’t for the life of me figure out how to say this name. With all of the Italian words I’m fond of, I can’t figure this one out. Ari-Arizona. Anyway, okay. So she writes this biographer on Belle Dacosta Green and I tried to get a copy of it and it was incredibly expensive.

Theresa: So I was like one of those out of print things.

Angie: I think so. Anyway, her biography gives her birth date as that of November 26, 1879. So I’m going to assume that’s the right date, November 26, 1879, but it is possible it’s December 13, 1883. Her parents are Genevieve Fleet, which I absolutely love, and Richard T. Greener. So her dad, Richard Theodore Greener, he is the first black graduate of Harvard. Whoa.

Right. He is a prominent civil rights activist, the Dean of Harvard University’s School of Law, as well as a diplomat. And if you’re interested about his time as a diplomat, I do have that information, but the story is not about him. So I didn’t really include a ton of it. I do know that he ends up in Russia though, and that is important later.

Theresa: You know, in North America and in Russia, that is compelling.

Angie: In like the early 1900s. Yeah. Serving as a diplomat. Yeah, it’s interesting. Her mother, Genevieve Ida Fleet, she was a music teacher, as well as a member of this very prominent African American family that comes from the upscale Northwest area of the DC region. So to just like kind of set the stage for our conversation later, it’s relevant to point out that Genevieve’s father, so Bell’s grandfather, was James H. Fleet, and he was an abolitionist as well as a founding member of the Mount Zion United Methodist congregation of Georgetown.

This church serves as a station for the Underground Railroad. So like her family is very prominent, and it’s very into a lot of things. But it’s not all cupcakes and rainbows because there are a few things working against our girl at this time.

First of all, she’s female, and this is the time of Jim Crow. So right, like you’re getting this picture. Yeah. That said though, between her and her mother, they make some changes somewhere in the 1890s. Green’s parents divorce and surnames are changed for our girl. So she stops going from Bell, Mary and Greener to Bell, the Costa Green. And this kind of gives her a story to work with that says she’s a Portuguese ancestry, maybe even of the aristocratic flair. Oh. And also, this allows her to be white passing.

Theresa: So because the Portuguese do have quite a bit of tone to their skin.

Angie: Right. And from what I understand, I’m not 100% certain I did not look up like what her grandparents look like or were. But from what I understand, she does have some rather white ancestry at some point from before her. So she does, she does have this, I don’t want to say in her quarter because you shouldn’t have to be white.

Theresa: But you know what I mean? It’s one of those unfortunate truths. Like you don’t want people to be treated different, but at some point you have to identify how you look. Yeah. Grant’s privilege. If you look in a certain thing.

Angie: Which is why we change our last name to the Costa Green instead of Greener. It takes away that tie to her father, who is a very, very prominent, very black man of his time. And I don’t think they ever really had much of a close relationship like mom and dad divorce.

And she sort of just never speaks to them again. Like wow. Just in it either. Pretty much. Yeah.

And I’ll get into a little bit of that later. But so basically she changes her name to the Costa Green to give that sort of Portuguese flair. Meanwhile, her mom changes her name to Von Fleet and claims Dutch ancestry. And they and her, and what’s left of her siblings, they moved to New York.

Now there are a couple of interesting little caveats here. Once her name changes and then like life changes that are occurring at the same time for whatever reason that people that she’s encountering seem to believe that she is raised in Virginia as opposed to Washington DC. And this sort of adds to the lie that she often tells people.

And it works. Like I don’t know why it matters being raised in Virginia versus DC, but for whatever reason this identity that she’s built really, really helps her situation. And the other problem that she has is that she is constantly telling people that she’s younger than she is. Because living as a single woman past a certain age at this time frame is frowned upon. Right. Right?

Okay, so our girl is basically doing all of this just to survive in a society that doesn’t appreciate her. But anyway, like I said, mid 1890s they moved to New York. Green takes a position in the administrative staff offices of Columbia University’s Teachers College. And it’s here that she meets Grace Holi Dodge. Now Holi Dodge is this prominent philanthropist and she is a champion of social welfare.

And she immediately recognizes Green’s professional confidence and interpersonal skills. So Dodge sets out to facilitate her admission into the Northfield Seminary for young ladies and also provides financial support for her studies, which is like super cool. So Green spends the next three years at the seminary likely between 1896 and 1899. But then the following year in 1900 she enrolls in Amherst College Summer School of Library Economy. It’s this super intensive six weeks program that introduces students to the up and coming field of library science, which for me honestly feels like so late in the game because we’ve had libraries for millennia.

Theresa: Yeah, you would assume that in the library of Alexandra there were a dewey decimal system. I wouldn’t say dewey decimal, but I would say library science practitioners. Just like there’s been medicine. Like sure you might have been being bled.

Angie: You know, leeches might have been involved. Right, yeah. Right. So I thought that was so funny when I read that because I was like, wait a minute. What? Okay, so anyway, these courses there are things like cataloging, indexing and handwriting. And this is where our girl gets an upgrade. She gets a job at the Princeton University Library in 1902. It’s here that she’s trained in cataloging as well as reference work.

And it’s also here that she develops this expansive knowledge of rare books and manuscripts. And she meets a man called, I’m probably going to pronounce this wrong too and I should have looked it up so I’m so sorry. Johnny Spencer Morgan II. Who would later make introductions to his uncle, the financier, J.P. Morgan.

Theresa: Well, you know, I will say if you’re going to screw up somebody’s name, do a rich person.

Angie: He’s dead. He probably doesn’t care anymore. It’s just, it’s a funny name to me. I’ve never seen it before and I’m going to assume it’s of the Greek flair, but I don’t know.

I’ve never seen it. So long story short, it’s 1905. And like I said, she’s been introduced to J.P. Morgan and she takes on being J.P. Morgan’s librarian. She is only 26 at the time. And I love knowing that it’s his nephew that was, that it made the introduction to them was her co-worker at the Princeton Library. Like that’s wild to me that I guess, you know, does the gentleman’s job, right? Like he’s obviously of the upper echelon of society, but I’m going to go out and get a job in a library.

So anyway, I just thought that was funny. Now, according to Deborah Parker, who’s writing for the Smithsonian, she says, quote, henceforth, Green’s life didn’t just kick into a higher gear. It was supercharged. She became a lively fixture at social gatherings among America’s wealthiest families. Her world encompassed Gilded Age mansions, country retreats, rare book enclaves, auction houses, museums and art galleries. Bold, vivacious and glamorous, the keenly intelligent Green attracted attention wherever she went. Now, along with all that, her tasks at the library are to organize catalog and shelve Morgan’s collection. It’s worth mentioning.

Theresa: I know, right? Obviously Vatican archives would be the ultimate, but

Angie: if you couldn’t have that, I’ll take J.P. Morgan’s library. Sounds great, because let me just tell you some of the other things he’s got going on. We’re going to get there in just a second. I want to mention that her assistant is also another woman. Her name is Ada Thurston, and she is an experienced bibliographer. And I just think it’s really cool that in the 1920s, J.P. Morgan has this, whether intended or not, he’s hiring women in these roles that for the lack of anything else have usually been catered towards men.

So I think it’s neat to see that. Now, it wouldn’t be long before Green becomes like the gatekeeper for J.P. Morgan, who always has people seeking him out to be like a patron for their arts. Now, it seems for him, Morgan really respects her opinions on these matters. So if Green says, yeah, we need to take care of this individual, Morgan’s going to do it. If Green says, nope, Morgan says, nope.

Theresa: So, this is her, or she is Pepper Potts.

Angie: That’s exactly how I envisioned her. Yeah, exactly how I envisioned her. It’s 1908, and by this point, Green has begun representing Morgan to the greater world, abroad, if you will. By this point, she is renowned for her like extensive knowledge of illuminated manuscripts and exceptional skill in negotiating with dealers.

Green managed the acquisition and sell of millions of dollars worth of rare books, manuscripts and artwork on Morgan’s behalf. She aims to establish his library as quote preeminent. So she’s looking for things like the Inculabula, which I’m sure I pronounced wrong, manuscripts, bindings and the classics, as well as Gutenberg Bibles and Crusader Bibles, knowing that Morgan would spare absolutely no expense for significant works. So like, she carries the pocketbook. And if she says, this is what we want, Morgan says, yes, ma’am, let’s make it happen. In 1912, New York Times profile highlights Green’s quote, force of persuasion and intelligence, describing how she secured 17 coveted William Caxon books for the Morgan Library through strategic pre-oction purchases.

Rather than allowing the rare volumes to remain hidden in private collections, Green championed making all of these treasures available to the general public. Whoa, right? I think that’s so cool. So like, I did a little Googling in the, I thought I have my note in here, but the Inculabula is like the type of manuscript and they’re hard to come across and they’re super, super rare, but like she’s got them. And she, her whole goal is to make all of these things something that the average man can see in one form or another, which I think is just so cool. Now, in contrast to Morgan’s more reserved personality, Green is characterized in a chronicle of American art options as possessing a wild gay humor, which sort of sets her apart in the very serious world of rare book collecting.

People are like, oh, dang, here she comes. And I think that’s super fun. Morgan’s biographer, Gene Strauss shows us the super great example of their relationship. She says quote, Morgan hated paying custom duties, especially on art objects and like countless of other travelers before and since evaded them whenever possible. He quickly enlisted Green as an ally in tax evasion. One year she managed by artfully letting the custom agents find several doodable items of hers in her luggage to draw their attention away from a painting.

Three bronzes and a very expensive watch, which he had asked her to buy in London. When I landed at the library with all of JP’s treasures, she said to a friend, well, he and I did a war dance and laughed in great glee. Okay, tax evasion is bad, but happy dancing with your boss is awesome. I mean, yeah, what are you going to do?

Theresa: You know, at some point, somebody, you know, it’s good to get one over on the man.

Angie: And I’m thinking that’s that’s what I’m picturing here, right? JP Morgan would die in 1913, but not before leaving her $50,000 in his will. Dang. Which would allow her to live comfortably on top of the $10,000 a year she was being paid in her salary, which if you’re curious, and I know you are, that yearly salary equals over 300 K today. All right, so she’s she’s not hurting. No, she’s not. And the inheritance from Morgan that she receives is roughly $1.64 million. So all I’m saying is I am willing, I’m willing to do this kind of work. You need me to sneak a bronze statue across customs. It seems reasonable for $300,000 a year.

Theresa: A year. It’s not like a one like, you know, like, hey, this is recurring.

Angie: You know, this is how it’s going to go. So after JP Morgan dies, Green continues working for his son and daughter-in-law JP Morgan Jr. and his wife, Jane Norton, grew Morgan. Then in 1924, her efforts of making things available pay off and she becomes the first director of the newly public Morgan library called the peer point Morgan library. She marks the occasion with a series of exhibitions, including one that attracts an unprecedented number of 170,000 visitors.

Theresa: I don’t want to think about the number of human that is like an entire city descending on a library to see.

Angie: Yeah, right. One exhibit. While at the library, she identifies works made by a Spanish forager, which is pretty cool. So the Spanish forager is an individual believed to be a Spanish descent who in like the late 19th and early 20th century, he creates this large number of forgeries of medieval miniatures. And he also completes, I say that with air quotes, some unfinished miniatures and add some missing miniatures to medieval choir books. For a long time, his work fools many experts and collectors at the time, and they still show up today in collections of many museums and libraries around the world. Our girl gave him the name when identifying his forgeries of which there are over 200 that have been identified. And she’s the one that was like, this is him. This is what’s going on.

Right? So like, sis knows her stuff. She retires in 1948. In 49, the library.

So I thought this is wild. Actually, I’ll get there in just a second. In 1949, the library showed an exhibit of some 250 of the best of green spines. She is able to attend though she is wheelchair bound at the point. She is also in her 70s, which is bananas to me. Now on top of her roles at the library, she was also one of the first women named to a named a fellow of the medieval Academy of America. A fellow in perpetuity.

Theresa: I like how I tried to say it and then I stumbled as well. I’m like, oh, I got this and then like perpet.

Angie: I couldn’t say aristocrat to my husband last night. I’ve said it wrong so many times. He was like, are you trying to say aristocracy? And I was like, yes. That’s the word. A fellow in whatever the Metropolitan Museum of Arts, as well as serving on the boards of things like the Gazette de Beau Art and Art News. She is also a member of the Hiroshima club, which for lack of a better way of explaining it is like a book club for women who were previously excluded from other clubs because of gender. So she’s a founding member of the New York based chapter of this club. But before I do finish, I want to tell you about her personal life for a moment because she did actually have one. Her relationship with her dad must have been a strange one because once she took the job with Morgan, she probably never spoke to him again. And even though he lived until 1922, she listed him as deceased on her passport application throughout the early 20th century. Whoa, that’s right. There is a small chance they might have met once in Chicago in 1913, but there’s nothing proving that they did.

So do with that, what you will. Either way, she spends her entire life hiding her connection to him, as for the reasons I mentioned earlier. She never marries, though she does have a long romance with the Italian Renaissance art expert Bernard Bernsson of Russian descent, which I think is really interesting. Now her mother lived with her for decades and she played a pivotal, very active role in the raising of her nephew, Robert McKenzie Leveridge, who was actually born in her home, which I thought was pretty cool.

When she was asked if she was ever Morgan’s mistress, she replied rather cryptically, we tried. That’s it, that’s all you get. That’s a hell of an answer.

Right? I love this quote. She was one of the most influential figures in American book collecting and art history curating of one of the finest questions in the world. She led the library through the Depression and World War II. Mentored young scholars and librarians, but she was a woman and a black woman living as a white woman in a time when neither were appreciated, which must have led to some really interesting emotions and thoughts on her part. Because her whole family dynamics super wild to me. But regardless, she took all of her secrets to her grave. She died on May 10th of 1950.

Wow. Her famous tough negotiating style is quote, just because I am a woman doesn’t mean I can be taken advantage of. She was known for bold statements, a colorful personality. I’d rather be a brilliant memory than a curiosity, she said, which totally made me think of you.

Theresa: I feel lovely with that. That is the best compliment.

Angie: Right? Her distinctive style included bright colors and dramatic jewelry. And I’m like, dang girl, what was your jewelry be looking like? I got questions.

Theresa: Yeah, well, I mean, she had the money to be able to afford what she wanted. Right.

Angie: And in whatever color she wanted, and 10 of them if she wanted. So that is the story of the first black librarian of J.P. Morgan’s Peer Point Library and her life. And I learned of it recently and was like, I love her. I love her so much despite the fact that she had to hide who and what she really was. She, it didn’t stop J.P. Morgan from loving her. So, or it’s something too.

Theresa: We tried. Okay, so I’m going to take a sharp pivot and I am going to probably make you giggle uncontrollably for a second. I love this for me. My sources. Is it the bathroom wall? No.

Is it a Reddit post? National Park Service, article titled York’s Early Life Before the Lewis and Clark Expedition. National Park Service, York’s Early Life National Park Service, York as Clark’s Body Servant. National Park Service, Traveling West, York Service to the Lewis and Clark Expedition. National Park Service, York after the Lewis and Clark Expedition.

Angie: This is a plug for the National Park Service. Go outside, touch some grass.

Theresa: Look, I just want you guys to know I love the National Park Service. She does love the National Park Service.

Angie: As much as I love a good Reddit post.

Theresa: Yeah, to say that I wrap it whole. Like, and okay, so when I do research, typically what happens is I will know about something or a glimmer, right? And then I will look, you know, is there a lot of news articles available or you know, articles and stuff. And then I go, are there podcasts?

There were no podcasts. Devastating? Like there might be a 45 minute lecture on the Lewis and Clark Expedition with a passing mention of Bro’s name. Yeah, this feels right. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So here is what I wanted to find.

Angie: Here’s the podcast you were looking for. Yeah. And she’s going to pronounce her words right as opposed to the two words I couldn’t pronounce today being my author’s name.

Theresa: Here’s my options, right? Here’s my options, right? York, Lewis, Clark, right? Good for you. Okay, so York’s parents, he’s born to Old York and Rose. They’re enslaved by John Clark. Like of Lewis and Clark? Of Lewis and Clark. That’s where we’re going, right? Okay, so.

Angie: Wait, before you go further, can I just ask a question? Yes. Which one is the one who cared for the education of Clark? I think it was Clark. Clark took Le Bebe.

Theresa: Le Bebe. Okay, got it. Okay, I think it was Clark. That feels right. I’m like 80% and the more I talk about it, the more the percentage drops, so we should move on. Period. Okay. Okay, now because this is the time, slaves themselves tend to not have a surname, okay? Right.

Now it’s possible that York’s dad, Old York, is John’s personal servant, John being Clark’s son, the guy who goes on the expedition, dad. Right. Okay. Right. Rose could have been a house servant. So I cannot add enough wiggle words here, right?

As much as we know ambiguity, recording slave stuff, these are things. Now York is about the same age as John Clark’s son, William. Okay.

I say about the same age because, again, records. We’re not great at recording things. Recording things we don’t care about. about. Right.

And we didn’t care about. Now, so York’s exact birth date is not quite known, but we assume that he’s born in Virginia around 1770, so that he is around Clark’s age. Okay, William Clark, the son. Now, in 1784, William Clark, he’s around 14 years old. York is given to him as a body servant.

Angie: What is a body servant? Is that like an LA? Kind of, I think so. Okay.

Theresa: I imagine it’s one of those mom told me to do the dishes. I don’t want to. I need you to go do the dishes. Mom told me to pick up my room. I want you to my proxy. Yeah. Okay, I will be hiring a proxy from here on out.

That’s what I need. Now, either way, York and Clark are connected to each other from a very early stage, right? 14 years old. Right. Okay. And there’s a guy named Hassan Davis who’s been researching and portraying York for decades.

Okay, that’s cool. Isn’t that so think historical actor, right? Now love that he goes on to say York was going to be William’s first slave, his gift as a young man, his companion. Okay, so can I just for just a second?

Angie: And I tell you how much I hate the idea that your person is given to you as your companion, but they are also your slave. Like the word companion and the word slave to me are two very different things.

Theresa: You mean consent to imply and play a role?

Angie: Yeah, but it brings up the really interesting relationship that is often in these types of households. I think this is going to sound so dumb as a as a source, but the the moment in Django Unchained, where he tell where Samuel Jackson tells Leonardo DiCaprio to like, hush it. And Leonardo DiCaprio listens to him.

I think it’s phenomenal, because it really does show like, yeah, Samuel Jackson is the one that raised him. Yeah, that’s very much accurate as far as life. So the idea of consent and companion and also slaves, I hate one or the other and slaves should never be an option.

Theresa: Yeah, it’s so tangled. It’s so tragic. But I think it does. It shows just how complicated this relationship was and will get. Yeah, every single time. Yep. Now, the Hasan Davis, he so he spent a hell of a long time researching York, he goes on to speak to tribal members of the Nez Kiers tribe, and gets and gather stories that have been passed down. And this is particularly he’s focusing on. It’s called during the tent of many voices and the other Lewis and Clark bicentennial commineration events. And so these help him gather and really paint this very holistic picture of York and who he was.

That’s super cool. So I mean, I just I want to be near him with a tape recorder and just sit at feet and listen. Agreed, because these sound like incredible stories. I don’t care what they’re talking about. Now, one of the things he goes on to say is I was gifted with the stories from the elders, the Nez Kiers from the storytellers of the Missouri O.K.

who or Oto who pull me aside and say, No, let me tell you how we know York, you need to understand as you embody him that there was so much more. Those were amazing gifts.

Angie: Wow. And I’m just again oral history knowing the truth. Yeah.

Theresa: Now, as we’ve already hinted with Clark and York growing up together, this is a pretty complicated bond. It’s close, but they’re enslaved and in flavor. It’s friend and boss. It’s everything, right? Now, records, manifest documents of the expedition refer to him as just York. But Clark’s journals often refer to him as quote servant unquote. I hate that. I do too. But this tends to indicate that York is probably just a body servant.

Okay. Now, this is a term that signified the assignment of a young slave to be as a companion to an equally young master. So this kind of yolks to equally aged humans. Okay, grow up together.

Angie: Cool, because we kind of just grown up in the same household. Right.

Theresa: I mean, I would say it’s kind of like paying somebody to be your friend, but you’re not paying them and you’re forcing them. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Now, there is a woman named Rhonda Bloomberg. And according to her, York’s adventures with Lewis and Clark, this black household servants like like York would have been more upper class slaves. He’d have slept in Clark’s home. He’d have been with an ear shard of William the whole time. He’d had nicer clothing than the field slaves. But they were probably still hand me downs from William and his brothers.

Okay. Now, he would have eaten better food from the family’s kitchen, and probably would have had a more refined set of manners and speech patterns. Right, that makes sense. But he would have likely been forbidden from reading and writing. Also makes sense.

Yeah. Now, around the time of the expedition, both William and York are around 34 years old. Now, we know York was married because Clark notes in a few letters sent back from home from Fort Mandon, that on returning the keelboat that York was sending two buffalo robes back down river quote one for his wife and one for Ben. Who’s been? We don’t know who Ben is. Ben is somebody York at least cares about enough to give a buffalo robe to now.

Maybe a son could be could like or you know, but we don’t that that tidbit is lost. Right now. Our dude has on Davis who’s been just a real trooper and getting us all these details. He says quote, what that looks like from accounts of the enslaved hand servants, personal valets at that time was that York would have been a cultured with Clark so much that York would have been able to be in alignment with Clark. As far as they feel and how they experience the world, which this makes a ton of sense. Yeah, around somebody so much, you know how they think you know what bothers them or what they need, you know, you’re better able to anticipate needs and align and help counterbalance somebody.

That makes 100% sense. Now, because he grew up enslaved by the Clarks, William goes with York everywhere. And they tend to gain a lot of the same skills on the frontier by each other’s sides. And you’re that part, right? Like, it’s much easier to build a fire when you have somebody else besides you struggling to build a fire, you’re not doing on your lonesome and thinking it’s impossible.

Angie: Yeah, this makes this. Okay, anyway, I mean, no, no, carry on, carry on. I just it to me, like I mentioned earlier, the complicated relationship, this makes it that much more complicated. Like we’re literally equals in everything we do. But I’m still your boss. And that feels so weird to me. Like, yeah, yeah, okay.

Theresa: Yeah, no, this story is not going to it doesn’t end badly. But it’s there’s going to be some stuff you chew on. Yeah, okay, this stuff that makes you think yes. Now, basically the stuff that they’re learning the frontier skills that they’re building out, this is going to help them in the thing that they’re going on that they don’t know that they’re going on, like they don’t see the path before them because we haven’t done the Louisiana purchase yet. Now, when Lewis and Clark, they come together, they have this checklist of what are the things they need? What are the skills they need? They realized that York is basically going to have all of these checked off.

Sick. And Davis would go on to say that he was a trained frontiersman because he grew up with a family that’s on the frontier, he understood how to navigate rivers, because that’s the thing they did. Clark Clark talks about York in his letters saying that he was setting the boat up and at the river and doing his work. So York’s important to Clark, because he was the holder of Clark’s memory and work on a daily basis.

Angie: What does it mean to be the holder of memory?

Theresa: I think just because he experiences things, Clark can say, so what did they say back there? Right.

Angie: Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Theresa: I am the holder of Pub’s memory. So that love that for you. I don’t. But at least that makes sense to me, right? Now, as they’re growing up, this is going to be one of the more powerful parts that makes Clark or York valuable to William Clark.

That makes sense. And okay, so now here’s where things kick off. Here’s where the storyline develops as we would see it in the modern historical record. When Clark is called by Maryweather Lewis to co-lead the core of discovery west of to the west to Pacific Ocean, not west of Clark, he’s in his early 30s, right?

34. That’s when the thing kicks off. Davis imagines the decision to bring York is an easy one. It’s a foregone conclusion. Because not only to court, not only did York, not Clark and York combined in a single word. So York possesses all these useful skills. He’s got this large build. He’s incredibly strong. He’s also a constant in Clark’s life.

Yeah, that makes sense. So due to the foregone conclusion. Now, on the expedition, it’s the unknown.

There’s a ton of things that nobody can account for anything. And if anything goes wrong, and there’s, I don’t know, a mutiny. Clark wants to have the biggest, strongest guy he knows behind him.

Fair, which me too. Now, Clark knew that he would always have someone with him who’s going to be a protector, provider, support system, all of that. And if everything in the world failed Clark, Davis believes that he that Clark could believe and imagine that York was going to be the most constant thing in his life.

Angie: So I would, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Theresa: Now, here, Davis notes that while we celebrate York’s life and character, we must remember that participation is never York’s choice. His personal desire to go never considered. Right. Now, for example, Lewis and Clark did not recruit members of the expedition who were married for fear that if the expedition met an ill fate, the wives are going to be left without husbands, or maybe families are left without protective protectors.

Angie: But we don’t get the same consideration to York who is being a girl back home being there you go.

Theresa: Because York’s attachments, who cares? It’s chattel slavery. Hate it. Now, that’s where this kind of breaks apart because it’s easy to romanticize and be like, well, they were brothers and it is right. When you look at the relationship between York and William Clark, there’s it’s just we’ve talked about this the entire episode, or at least this entire story, it’s just complex.

No matter how you slice it, the consent and the lack of consent is going to really complicate everything. That makes sense. Right.

Like they’re they’re friends, but they’re not like you, you know, like it’s going to be really cloudy because of those power dynamics. Now, when you look at the oral histories from the Ness Pierce, along with the Clark and Lewis journals, and all of the other historical accounts, we can see that York traveled west with the core discovery and when he does so, his value to the expedition is incredible. It’s more than what Clark imagines because I believe it. Lewis and Clark, two white dudes are fumbling their way through diplomatic efforts with tribes. European manners fumbling be damned.

Angie: Something tells me these two don’t have a ton of European man.

Theresa: I’m going to say refined man, right? Like refined manners of the European variety are not going to be the same as in Japan as in the tribal. You like each area refined manners means something completely different. Read the room. It’s so hard to read the room when they’re in a different rulebook.

Angie: Yeah, I was just thinking like the difference of what’s what’s considered polite society here versus what’s considered polite society in Japan, what’s considered polite society, even in a different town. It’s place to place people to people like if I don’t stick my tongue out at the moray, they’re going to eat me. If I stick my tongue out at an Australian, that might be rude.

Theresa: There’s a ton. The captains, though they’re captains, though they’re fairly aristocratic white dudes in the U.S., they don’t know a ton of the politics among the various plain tribes. Chocolate. Surprise. And so they’re giving certificates, medals, long speeches, huge ass promises, value ready checks, their butt, cash, exactly. And the more they go up the Missouri River, the more impressive York’s appearances. Okay. Because they’ve not seen a black guy.

Angie: So this is giving Nobunaga.

Theresa: This is giving very much a Yosuke of Nobunaga. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you knew Oda Nobunaga. So part one of my job here is done. For those not fully aware, back episode one, we apologize for the audio in advance.

I told the story of Yosuke, who is the first foreign-born samurai in Japan, and bro is black. And beautiful. Good thing.

I mean, should the paintings from the time period reflect? Anyhow, carry on. Now, the tribes back to York, they’re encountering, as this expedition is rolling down the river, they are seeing this three-boat band with a stingy supply of gifts and trade items, but then they see this very awe-inspiring black dude.

Okay. Now, October 9th, 1804, they’re on the Great Plains. William Clark writes in his journal, Sorry, canoes of skins passed down from the two villages a short distance above, and many came to view us all day, much astonished at my black servant who did not lose the opportunity of his strength and power, and this nation never saw a black man before. Okay. So diplomacy be damned, they brought something novel. That’s really cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. We know what- I don’t know about white dudes, but that’s cool looking. That guy. What’s your name? I like it. Come make friends with us. Can you break this, rip this phone book in half?

Phone book? I mean, look, I’m going to be anachronistic. That’s who I am.

Love this for you. I was thinking like, you know, a log perhaps, but no, phone book will do. No, phone book. I mean, why, I mean, look, I got to show my age, right?

Because nowadays, there are no such things as phone book. Dude. Yeah. Okay.

Carry on. Now, our dude, Hasan Davis, who has all these oral histories, he goes on to say, as they entered into the expedition beyond St. Louis and they started to meet these amazing people across Feteer, York starts to see himself differently. I think because these communities see himself differently. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. Like so they, he goes on to say, as they give him names like Black Indian or big medicine as that’s cool. Big medicine. I know. Yeah.

Love it. The Missouri Otoi chief or sub chief who greets him came right up to York and began to talk to him like he was a friend. And Lewis and Clark have to explain to the sub chief that York was just a guy with a guy like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he’s not cool. We’re cool. We’re cool. He’s underneath us.

Angie: Your buddy buddy, I really wish Lewis and Clark could learn to read the room one time and just shut their mouth and what York do with job one time. Yeah, just, but I mean, I’m not known.

Theresa: Now, I think like the popularity with the tribes that York has, like that is just an incredible encapsulation of the strengths and successes that he’s got. Yeah. Take care. New Year’s Day, 1805. While wintering with the Mondan, Clark writes, I ordered my black servants to dance, which amused the crowd very much and somewhat astonished them that so large a man should be active.

Angie: So large a man has rhythm.

Theresa: Yeah. He and he can shake what his mama gave him. And nowadays, we would say in the club, we all say him.

Angie: Now, at least we know, we know that that’s what the indigenous folks were saying back then also.

Theresa: Oh yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, William Clark is most likely going in the club. What is a club? The club, we wear clocks. So they start to recognize that York is basically a great ice breaker with these different communities that they’re encountering. And Clark exploits York and gets him to do feats of strength, dance on his hands, basically anything that this dude can to impress people.

And then that’s when Clark comes in with the sales pitch. Like, yeah, he’s amazing. He’s powerful. He does all these great things. I own. I own everything about him.

So if he’s great, imagine how great I am by proxy. I’m not falling for it. Yeah.

I can’t imagine that that did either. But it’s incredible that always be selling. Always be selling. Now, because this is just a glorified Hasan Davis post, I’m going to quote him again. You know, the idea of there being something different on the way back, coming back into a civilized world that seemed really different, really real for him.

My mama says, sometimes you can’t unboil an egg. And I think that once York experienced all of that and realized his value, you know, wasn’t attached to his skin, but to his courage, his capacity, and his willingness to engage like the other men and women in accompanying something or accomplishing something, his expectations changed.

Angie: Which yeah, I’m not even a little bit surprised.

Theresa: And you won’t be surprised by this next line. Despite his many contributions to the core of discovery, Clark refused to release York from bondage upon their return to St. Louis in 1806. Cool. Yep. But hey, you know how we talked about Ben? The gesture is not unheard of. Like, Clark knew how to release people because he’d released Ben in 1802.

Angie: Okay. And we still don’t know Ben’s relationship.

Theresa: I don’t know what Ben’s relationship is, but I do know that it was quote, in consideration for the services already rendered. Okay. But he forced York to remain at Clark’s side during his time at St. Louis when the family had traveled back to Virginia and Washington City. I bet you Ben just started. I don’t know. Maybe I don’t know.

I mean, your guess is as good as mine, right? Now, apparently the relationship between William Clark and York kind of gets bad. Little worse for where over the years because what we do know is in the late summer or early fall of 1809, York’s quote, misconduct leads to a falling out between the two of them. Good. I bet it’s Ben. Clark removes York from his quote, privileged status as a body servant and hires York out for a year to a Louisville farm. Hate that. Now York’s wife still lives in the Louisville area, but it’s not clear if York, or it’s not clear if Clark sent him to Young’s farm so he could be closer to his wife or if he wants to teach York a lesson because Young, who owns the farm, is notorious for abusing his slaves.

Angie: I am going to go with her previous moments in the story. It’s not because he wants to keep him close to his wife. Yeah.

Theresa: Yeah. Because, hey, if he’s cool and I own him. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I thought Clark was cool till we got to this story. You know, okay, here’s the deal with what I do. I feel like my tombstone will say, Trisa, portraits, wet blankets.

Angie: No, I think you just, people are compelling, right? Like general Pershings.

Theresa: And then you read about general Blackjack Pershings and you’re like, you son of a bitch.

Angie: But also, it was really cool speech you gave him on the Lofi at Monument.

Theresa: Right. Okay. And you gave us Stubby, Sergeant Stubby and also Stubby in the back hole.

Angie: Yeah. Okay. I love this for us. I know. If we’ve learned anything, humanity is consistent and people are compelling.

Theresa: I haven’t told any of the stories about George now. Here’s, here’s, but I’m going to wrap it up. It’s at this point where York story becomes quite murky. Clark doesn’t mention the slave and writing again. So according to Clark, dead to me. And it’s not going to be until 20 years later that Clark speaks of York. This is 1832. I had to look at, because I said 1832 and I was like, no, that’s literally what it said. I paused, was like, I said it wrong, wrong decade or wrong century. Good job.

I got it right and I still bailed because I was like, now it’s wrong. He’s visiting with author Washington Irving and Clark stated that he freed a large number of his slaves, including York and York, apporting supposedly had begun a cargo company at this time. Clark continued to explain he couldn’t get up early enough in the morning. His horses were, goodness, grief, Teresa, his horses were ill kept, two died, and the others grew poor. So he sold them, was cheated, and then entered into service, fared ill. Damn this freedom, said York.

I’ll never, I’ve never had a happy day since I got it. He determined to go back to his old master, set off for St. Louis, but was taken with cholera on Tennessee and died.

Angie: Just one time, just one time, I wanted to hear and then he lived happily ever after.

Theresa: Moved to an area with three waterfalls with the rest of the adventures he had grown close to and the party lived happily ever after.

Angie: The end. That’s what I wanted, Teresa, but it’s okay.

Theresa: I mean, in here I said I don’t want a bad note, but here we are.

Angie: I mean, well, look, I mean, nobody got caned in the story.

Theresa: On paper. Wailing to bet that happened.

Angie: Probably did. You know what, never mind, I’m gonna shut up. Yeah, would you?

Theresa: Would you kindly close the mouth all the way? But I mean, either way, I love this because back when I told the story of Sacagawea, there was like a passing mention of York and I remember learning about that. I was like, hold on to that. But it was also like, details are really sparse and scam about this random person and the party. I was like, okay, I will hunt you down later. Good sir.

Angie: I was going to ask, did you learn about him in your research for her? Because I, as you were talking about him going up the river and like meeting the tribes, I was thinking, I wonder if him and Sacagawea like worked together. Oh, they did. And these tribes over and I love that imagery is so cool. I’m here for it.

Theresa: Yeah, but it’s like, when I was learning about her, I knew I didn’t have time for the rabbit trail I wanted. And I had to, like I had to watch that offshoot go and wave bye bye as it went off into the distance and go, I’m coming back. Yeah.

So it only took me 100 episodes or so, but here we are. Hey, whatever. Right. I mean, actually, let me look up when was Sacagawea for those listening at home? Episode 97. So not quite 100 episodes. Yeah.

Wild. Yeah, we’ve been at this a minute. But if you’ve enjoyed this and hanging out with us, hell, we’ve enjoyed having you. Rate, review, subscribe. And if you’re thinking, oh, these commercials are really just grating on my last nerve, get rid of them. Join the Patreon. For the, for less than a cup of coffee a month, you could be ad free and enjoying uninterrupted Angie and Teresa tirades.

Angie: I’m not even going to apologize. I love you, truth. Yeah.

Theresa: And on that note, goodbye. Bye. Yeah. Excuse me.