Some stories just warm you up inside like a Hot Toddy. Today, Theresa starts us off with a story from her comfort era: World War II, as she shares the tale of Soviet sniper, Lyudmila Pavlichenko. This badass earns a sniper diploma before graduating from college, which proves beneficial as she ends up fighting as one of only 2,000 female snipers. While only 500 of these women would survive the war, Lyudmila thrives, racking up 309 confirmed kills. She would then go on to become a friend of First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt.
Angie struggles with pivoting as she transitions from this sniper to the French court, as she regales us with the life of the Duchess de Polignac. This woman would serve Marie Antoinette and become her best friend. Learn how this down-to-earth woman deals with the most indulgent time period of France, and dodges the Reign of Terror.
This story pairs well with:
Maria Bochkareva and the Russian women’s battalion of death
Nell Gwynn
General Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roche Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette
Transcript
Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast. The podcasts for two absolute crazy heads are going to mainline the history stories that we hear about in passing and then join forces with our friend and tell them the story we’ve only recently learned. I’m host one, I’m Teresa, and that is host two. I’m Angie.
And we’re pretty thinking excited. And before this, before I hit record, I did this thing where I actually looked at the spreadsheet and went, oh my gosh, Angie went only last time. Tis my turn.
Angie: Tis my turn.
Theresa: So I think my first two sources are going to crack you up just from where they are because you’re going to be like, of course, are you ready? Is it the National Park Service? That’s number two. Okay. Is the first one Reddit because you’re too good for Reddit? I’m too good for Reddit, but the first one is the National World War II Museum, New Orleans.
Angie: Oh, what are you going to be talking about?
Theresa: The article in that? From them is Lady Death of the Red Army, Ludmilla Povlchenko. Okay. Okay. And the National Park Service is Lady Death and the First Lady by Eric Seder. Boundary Stone has an article, As World War II Raged, Lady Death Came to Washington by Isabelle Sands and Rejected Princesses have a Ludmilla Povlchenko as well. Oh, I also… Go ahead.
Angie: No, I was just going to say I love rejected princesses and I think I know who’s story you’re telling and I am literally so excited.
Theresa: Good. There’s also a podcast, The History of Everything. They did Lady of Death as well. Okay. So… The History of Everything. Is that what it’s called? That’s the History of Everything.
And it ends up being… Well, it is, right? But you know who runs it or hosts it. We know who do it. We don’t know them personally. They are not friends of the pod, but they are Gabby and… Oh, God, what is his name? Steve Bell? Like the history guy who does all the stuff, like all the shorts on YouTube and TikTok. Oh, okay. That’s awesome. And his cute wife. Yeah, so they have their own podcast.
Okay. So, Ludmilla Povlchenko. She’s born in 1916 in Belaya, Zyrkov.
And this is a Ukrainian city that’s pretty large and it’s south of Kiev. Now, as a child, she describes herself as a tomboy and I love everything about her because she enjoyed being competitive in various activities. She’s especially ambitious against boys. Good for her. And her greatest joy in life is proving that girls can be just as good if not better.
Angie: We can do everything you can do better and backwards. And heal. Mm-hmm.
Theresa: At 14, her family relocates to Kiev and while in Kiev, our girl enrolls in a sharpshooter class where she earns the Vrochilov sharpshooter badge.
Angie: Can you say that one more time? That was so hot.
Theresa: Vrochilov. No, it’s gonna be hilarious. Is there’s going to be some Ukrainian speaker who’s going to write and it’ll be like, actually, and it’s gonna be like, girl, I speak Japanese.
Angie: Actually, that’s pronounced Darryl. Yeah. It’s okay. I was told by my Spanish teacher that I speak Spanish with a French accent and I’m like, well, there’s worse.
Theresa: I mean, you could speak Spanish with a Japanese accent and have your Spanish speaking roommate look at you like, I don’t, I am so confused as to what I’m looking at. Like I know that you. What do I do with you? You appropriately ordered a beer, but I have no idea what I’m looking at.
Angie: But I don’t know what country you appropriately ordered said beer in. Yeah, like I would give you the beer, but now I’m so lost. You want a Doseki’s or Saki’s? Yeah.
Theresa: Tell me out here. Like, huh, I didn’t realize the taco truck was going to have ramen. Strange.
Angie: Okay. That’s hilarious because our football team’s food provider was a taco truck that made ramen taco like Brea. Oh, it was amazing.
Theresa: It was a fusion truck is what I’m hearing. Yeah.
Angie: I’m like, every week, please come back.
Theresa: Well, anyhow, jetting sharply off to the Ukraine. Sorry.
Angie: No, you’re good. I’m speaking about food.
Theresa: Honestly, I am too. And we shouldn’t record this right before lunch. But the sharpshooter badge that she has, this ends up being a sort of civil decoration as well as a marksman’s certificate.
Angie: So, so it’s like a like a medal for.
Theresa: I think so. It’s yeah. It sounds like basically this isn’t your Girl Scout badge. This is something a little bit more elevated. Yeah. This has this had some gravitas to it.
Wait to it. Exactly. In 1939, she takes a job at a local arms plant and then she also enrolls herself at Key of University. So our girl is just surrounded by weapons and smart.
Get it sis. While she’s in university, she takes an interest in history and is intent on becoming a teacher. Okay, I love her. I mean, everything about this woman.
Now she’s competing on the university track team and she’s keeping up with her marksmanship by taking courses at a sniper school. Yeah, because that’s what I do on Tuesdays. I mean, it’s that and then Bible study. Am I right?
Angie: Yeah, I think that’s how it works. And if it’s not, I’ve been doing some sideways. Yep.
Theresa: Now June 1941, Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa and the word mark begins its invasion of the Soviet Union. This is where Hitler’s been like, yo, I love you. You’re great. We’re great. We have a non aggression pack. By the way, I just wiped your planes off the map.
Angie: Meanwhile, Stalin is moving the amber room. Yep.
Theresa: So now you know where all this is happening. Now when this happens, Pazchenko, she’s 24 years old. She is in her fourth year of study. And as soon as she learns of the invasion, she makes her way to Odessa to the recruiting office to enlist. She’s one of the very first rounds of volunteers to do so.
Angie: Wow. Yeah, she was like waiting at the door for it to open.
Theresa: Basically, like, it’s she’s just like, tag me in coach. Now is my time. Now she arrives. It’s in the morning that she arrived. She’s wearing heels and a dress and sources say that even her nails are manicured and her dark wavy hair is groomed.
Angie: Okay, because listen, she goes to the salon and then she goes to sniper school. You can be a sniper and be stunning. It’s called self care.
Theresa: It sure is. Now, according to the sources, our girl looks more like a fashion model than a German killer and the recruiter laughs at her. Rude. So he says, why don’t you work in the factories like the other women? And this is when our girl responds by taking out her sniper’s diploma, her Varoshila’s marksman badge and the other shooting and paramilitary honors and drops them on the table in front of him. The expression of his face changes. I would hope so. And then he takes her out back and he shows her a group of Germans in the distance. And apparently in this group, there’s two Romanians because Romania was on the axis side.
He hands her arrival that she’s never fired before. And apparently that is a very big thing. Like if you know your gun, you know your gun, right? Yep. And he challenges her to take out the two outliers in the group.
He’s like basically aim for the Romanians. And she does so without hesitation. That’s impressive.
Yeah. After proving her skills by taking these two Romanian collaborators, she is enrolled into the Red Army’s 25th Rifle Division as a sniper. She becomes one of 2,000 female Soviet snipers to serve and of which only 500 are going to survive the war. There were 2,000 of them. This is because our man Stalin basically erased a good chunk of the serving population because he was afraid of people standing up against him.
And then he’s like, oh, shit. Now that Operation Barbarossa has happened, I kind of need some dudes to fill, or I kind of need some chicks to fill the holes because I put some holes in some dudes. You are such oarsmith. And so there’s that, but there’s also the Soviet ideology of trying to elevate the status of women to equal-ish to men. Yep. So it’s a little bit of we do this for the people. We do it because I kind of shit the bed. Little column A, little column B. Okay, whatever works. Yeah. Now, according to Warfare History Network, the average lifespan of a sniper is about three weeks.
Angie: Whoa, I thought you were going to say something very different. Okay.
Theresa: Yeah, yeah. Apparently snipers that are captured from either side are executed on the spot.
Angie: Oh, good. So they fall into the command order. Yeah.
Theresa: Now, for about two and a half months, Pablo Enchanco, she fought on the front line during the siege of Odessa. And while at Odessa, she records 187 kills. And this earns her a promotion to Senior Sergeant.
That’s all it took, huh? Well, and I will say, for every time you hear a kill count, you need to understand that the kill only counts if there is a spotter to count it.
Angie: Right, to get the confirmed kill. Yeah.
Theresa: So does it bear shit in the woods? Kind of deal. Yeah. Or if a tree falls in the woods, no one hears it. Did it really fall? Whatever the saying is.
So imagine that number as kind of like at least 187. In October 1941, the Romanian Army gains control of Odessa and Pablo Enchanco and her unit withdraw to Sevastopol to defend the city. Pablo Enchanco fights in the siege of Sevastopol for eight months. And this is where the fighting is intense and it is just garnering gobs of Soviet casualties.
Angie: Okay. For eight months, she’s more than surpassed the three-week timeframe. Yeah.
Theresa: Every time it’s going to be like, and the average person has already clocked out. Now, in Sevastopol, her confirmed kill count rises even higher. By May of 1942, she’s racked up 259 confirmed kills.
Wow. And this garners her another promotion. Now she’s lieutenant.
Cool. Now in one battle, the enemy shells entered her and killed all of the other senior commanders around her. And this is where she ends up taking charge. There is a soldier who sees a bleeding Lutmila and Lutmila is barking orders to everybody around her. The soldier yells out cowards, look at this woman.
Pablo Enchanco has the balls of a man. Because she’s bleeding from the face. Right.
And she’s still holding it down. Like we got stuff to do. We got business. Yeah. Now.
We don’t have time to die. Pablo Enchanco’s kill count keeps rising ever higher. And as it does, the mission danger of her assignments also climbs. This includes countersniping or engaging in duels with enemy snipers.
Angie: Okay. That’s awesome. Yeah. Now that’s like a war game I’d like to play.
Theresa: I don’t know if I would because Pablo Enchanco, she wins every duel that she fights, including one that lasts three days.
Angie: Which is why I said a war game. I don’t want to actually do it. Okay, fair.
Theresa: Because for her to win, she lays absolutely still without moving for three days. When she goes to the restroom, she doesn’t adjust. She goes and lays it in. I would just hold it. And I mean, for three days, I think you can only do so much.
That’s true. Now, in the end, Pablo Enchanco stated that the enemy made quote, one move too many and became one of the 36 enemy snipers that she’d take down. So it’s just, okay, our girl would go so far as to tie strips of cloth that would flutter in the wind to distract the enemies. She would rig store mannequins to use as decoys.
And then she hunted in the rain to muffle her gunfire. That’s cool. Okay.
Yeah. She typically worked in a shooter spotter pair and this is likely how she met her husband. We don’t have a ton of information about her relationship with Lieutenant Major Leonard Kinsenko.
All we do know is that they are truly happy together. And then as the war drug on every day seem to take on a bit heavier of a toll because she loses her youth, her friends, her health. And then one day her husband’s murdered. And he’s her spotter. Yeah. That’s cool. It’s cool until he, until he, until he kicks the bucket.
Angie: I mean, yeah, that part sucks, but I’m thinking like how badass does he have to be lit to be like, yeah, I’m the spotter. Yeah, I support her. Like, yeah, you know, I’m here for it.
Theresa: Five miles southeast. Mm-hmm. Yep. Now, after he dies, her sniping grows crueler because this is when she starts doing things like aiming for the legs of her target so that they cry out for help, draw in some rescuers who become additional targets.
Okay. So if, if, if she’s a panel in her business, if she’s a cat, she’s playing with her food. I mean, it’s, it’s, ah, now at one time she ends up, she’s spotted when she’s climbing a tree to scout an area and becomes a sniper target.
Oh dear. So she pretends to get hit, falls from the tree, falls 12 feet, and I believe she fell between headstones in a cemetery. Oh, and is laying very, very still. She pretended to be dead, laying in the sun until night falls, and that’s when she crawls away.
Angie: I was just thinking like the one time the sniper comes to find you and finally makes it to you and your body’s gone.
Theresa: And just like, oh crap, where’d she go? Where’d she go? Where’d she go? Damn it. Object permanence is ridiculous. I hate ADHD. Now, June 1942, this is when she’s still fighting at Sevastopol. She’s wounded after shrapnel from a mortar round strikes her face. And this is when the military thinks that Pavlenchenko’s too valuable of an asset. So before she fully heals from injury, the Soviet high command withdraws her from battle. Now, during the time that she has spent fighting, Pavlenchenko’s obtained a record of 309 confirmed kills.
What a badass. By this point, her reputation as a sniper is under the nickname Lady Death. So that’s what I gotta do, huh? Yeah, you just gotta rack up a hell of a body count.
Angie: Maybe I’ll just start playing like Call of Duty or something. Yeah.
Theresa: Now, the German army knows of her as well. They attempted to bribe her. They’re sending messages of the loudspeaker stating, Lutmilla Pavlenchenko, come over to us. We’ll give you plenty of chocolate. We’re gonna make you a German officer.
Angie: So they’re like playing Red Rover? Yeah, basically. And also we have chocolate? Yep. I love this for them.
Theresa: Well, okay, so they apparently tried the carrot first and later they tried the stick because by the end of her time on the front line, some of the messages state, if we catch you, we will tear you into 309 pieces and scatter them to the winds.
Thank you. You gotta catch me first, babe. Well, this is when she ends up saying things like, Oh, I’m just so grateful they know my record accurately. How nice. It’s so sweet. I didn’t think they knew.
Angie: They’ve been paying attention after all.
Theresa: Now, after she fully recovers from her injuries, she’s not sent back to the front lines. She sent back or they Soviet command they give her a new role. Propaganda. That works. So 1942, she sent to North America at the behest of the Soviet Union to draw up support for the allies to open up a second front against Nazi Germany. Okay. So she becomes the first Soviet citizen to be received by a U.S. president.
Angie: That’s cool. I didn’t realize she was the first. Yeah.
Theresa: That’s super cool. Franklin Roosevelt welcomes her to the White House and it’s at this point the Soviets suffering some heavy casualty. Stalin really needs to divide the Axis powers attention and to open up that second front.
And this is hoping that the German because the German forces, they are swiftly conquering Eastern Europe and they’re moving deeper into Soviet territory. Okay. So what were you thinking about as you laid there between the two headphones?
Angie: I have to know for visual what color were your nails?
Theresa: It’s funny you say that. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. Now, I think it’s a good idea to have a little bit of a conversation with the American president. The first lady would ask her to join her on the tour of the U.S. so that public Chanko could speak to the Americans about her experience as a woman in combat. Yes. Which I’m just like, Holy Cow, but we were having that conversation in the 40s.
Angie: I think we’ve probably always been having that conversation to some degree. Truth. Yeah.
Theresa: Now, Eleanor Roosevelt would say of Luthmilla, there was something very charming to me about the young Russian woman. Junior, you tell it. Junior, Lieutenant, goodness grief. Junior, Lieutenant Luthmilla, Povlachenko, she has suffered and the suffering is something which is universal and binds all the world together regardless of language.
Okay. Now, here’s public Chanko side of the story. The first lady, quote, impulsively hugged me, brushed my forehead with her lips, saying, what dreadful ordeals you’ve had to endure.
Like, I love knowing both sides. Like, what were your first impressions of her? It’s like, she was way too familiar with me. She said nice things, but she kissed my forehead.
Angie: She kissed me. Did the sys, you Americans are very friendly.
Theresa: Yeah, like overly familiar. Like, it’s not bad, but it puts a girl on her back foot. Look who I do hear. Now, here’s something to really think about. At this point in time, Luthmilla is only 25 years old. She’s been wounded in battle.
Angie: Holy cow. This has only been a year. Yeah.
Theresa: Our girl is young.
Angie: I thought, okay, when you said that, like she went there, she was 24. I thought that we had like, we’re two or three years later. So she made all three hundred and nine of these kills in one year.
Theresa: She’s basically doing a body a day keeps the Germans away.
Angie: Okay. And she has time to find a husband in the middle. Right. Yeah. And find one and lose one.
Theresa: Yeah. Okay. It’s been an action packed year. Maybe her honeymoon, they were just lobbing grenades into trenches. I want the movie. Now, also while she’s on this tour, we have to remember she’s not able to speak English. And this is when she set off for this tour of the U S.
Angie: Oh, I didn’t even think of that. Yeah. Okay.
Theresa: She’s giving speeches around the country, making the case for the American commitment to fighting in Europe. She’s doing this in front of thousands of Americans who have gathered to see this battle, harm and woman in a uniform. But the American press is the American press and they’re looking for different angles. They’re asking about topics like her style or her lack of makeup. Oh, that’s so we’ve always been this way.
Angie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We’re consistent.
Theresa: Okay. Carries out and papers are belittling her achievements. The New York, the New York Times dubbed her as a girl sniper. Oh, no, she’s Lady Debt. Yeah. Like call me anything with, you know, my feminine attributes. It’ll be my moniker. And others are making note of her uniform that her long skirt being said to have quote lack of style.
Angie: I don’t need style as a sniper.
Theresa: I mean, uniform able to move in the trenches. I’m not wearing a skirt.
Angie: I’m so mad right now.
Theresa: It gets better though, because sometimes just go with me for a second because it’s going to be going to be bad. There’s a reporter who goes so far as to tell Pops and Chanko that in America women wear shorter skirts. And that her long olive green skirt makes her look fat. Again. Yeah. But this is when she’d ask a
Angie: reporter, does this rifle make me look fat?
Theresa: You know, I seem to lose weight when their pink mist is in the air. Weird. Another reporter asks if women are allowed to wear makeup on the front lines. And Pops and Chanko, she fires back stating there’s no rules against it, but question quote, who had time to think of her shiny nose when there’s a battle going on?
Angie: I love her so much.
Theresa: She’s got a clap back coming up that is even better because these are happening every time she speaks or seemingly every time she speaks. When she’s giving a speech in Chicago, she states, gentlemen, I am 25 years old and I have 309 or sorry, and I have killed 309 fascist occupants by now. Don’t you think, gentlemen, that you have been hiding behind my back for too long?
Angie: Oh, I love her so much. Boys, get it together.
Theresa: Yeah, like this skirt that’s too long, y’all are spending too much time hiding behind it.
Angie: Maybe that’s why it’s so long so you can all fit back there.
Theresa: Now, when she says this, she’s met by an applause and a huge uproar of support. As she should be. Yep. As she’s speaking, she’s talking about the lack of racial segregation within the Red Army and gender equality, which makes quite an impression on American singer Woody Guthrie, who would write a song about her titled Miss Pufflinchenko.
Angie: Wait, so she’s taught. I’m sorry, I need you to rewind for a second. She is talking about the lack of racial segregation. Mm-hmm.
Theresa: In the Red Army. Yeah, and how their gender equality. They’re not dealing with, they’re not putting up with racism. They’re not putting up with sexism.
Angie: That’s my mind as well.
Theresa: Now, I’m sure they are dealing with it, but to a lesser extent.
Angie: It’s not, it’s not America, right? Yeah. I’m thinking of my, I’m going to pronounce the name wrong, but my Maria Brokonova.
Theresa: Mm-hmm. And I was thinking about her as you were doing this. Now, for those of us playing at home, let’s actually look up when she was. Maria Bakareva and the Women’s Battalion of Death. That was episode 106. Victoria’s Grandbabies are clones. They are. They are clones. Yeah. So she’s, she’s just throwing down bars every time she goes to speak.
Angie: Good for her. Now. You don’t have time for your petty BS. We are working. Get away from my skirt. Yeah.
Theresa: Don’t worry about my lipstick shade because I’m too busy painting the town red. Literally.
Angie: Quite literally. Thank you so much.
Theresa: I do want to come up or tell you a couple lines of the song. Miss Puffletenko by Woody Guthrie. Because they are incredible. It’s Mrs. Puffletenko’s well-known to fame. Russia’s your country. Fighting’s your game. The whole world will always love you for all time to come. 300 Nazis fell by your gun.
Angie: I love it. I’m here for it. Yeah.
Theresa: And to know that that was just a radio jam.
Angie: Like this is Jingle. That’s just what we, it’s for more singing at the karaoke bar. Yeah. Okay.
Theresa: So her tour of the West brings her also to Canada and Great Britain. And this is where she continues to promote this concept of a second Allied Front. And it’s despite her efforts that she and Stalin would have to wait another two years before the Allies would open up the second front in Europe with Operation. Overlord. And that’s the Allied invasion into Normandy. Which is weird that like we haven’t covered her with all of the other stories that we’ve said so far, you know.
Angie: I honestly like you were saying when I did Andrew’s lesson, every one of our stories that involved the 30s to the 40s, they all beautifully tie in to something else we’ve talked about. Right. And then there’s the puzzle piece like, oh, okay. So I love that.
Theresa: So when she returns to the Soviet Union, Pavlenchenko is promoted to major and then given the title hero of the Soviet Union. And this is the country’s highest military distinction. And at some point she’s also received the order of Lenin twice.
And that’s the country’s highest civilian designation. Okay. Get a girl. And she ends up not returning to combat, but instead goes to train other Soviet snipers until the war’s end in 1945.
Angie: Okay. I mean, I feel like when you’ve done 309, you can start training people.
Theresa: Yeah. Let’s call it somebody from the second string to actually come up to the bench. It’s your turn to hit the field and to actually go put some points on the board. Yeah. After the war’s end, she would go back to Kiev University to complete her studies and then become a historian.
Angie: I’m just imagining like 30 years on from the war, she’s like this cute little teacher somewhere and nobody has any idea of her previous life. Yeah.
Theresa: Mouthing off to a student and the student is just like, oh, wait, crap. My dad told me about you.
Angie: Yeah. I’m sorry, ma’am.
Theresa: You’re going to take my swing shot away from me and give me a welt that I will wear for years. With pride. Thank you. In 1957, this is 15 years after her tour of the United States. Eleanor Roosevelt even finds herself visiting Moscow. And here’s where this is really touching because this former first lady, she is just adamant that she’s not going to leave without visiting her old friend, Lupimila Pavlchenko. Good for her. Now, apparently this causes some friction because her request is eventually granted. Eventually. Yeah. She wouldn’t be pacified on this one because it’s the 50s, right?
Theresa: Late 50s. We are Cold War. So Mrs.
Theresa: Roosevelt is brought to Lupimila’s two bedroom apartment in Moscow and Cold War tensions. They are fever pitch and she’s not allowed to visit Lupimila without supervision.
Angie: Oh my God. Yeah. Exactly. These two ladies aren’t going to start a war in the living room.
Theresa: But the handler said that, or it said that while the handler sat by, the two speak with a cool formality. And this is while this is in Pavlchenko’s front room. Somehow there’s a little bit of an excuse invented and the ex-niper pulls her friend into a bedroom. And once the door is closed, she throws her arms around Eleanor and then they seem to be half laughing, half crying. And Pavlchenko is telling Eleanor how happy she is to see her. Now the first lady attempted to bring Pavlchenko back to the United States for another visit, but the State Department denied her request.
Lane. And Lady Death remained in the USSR and at this point had become a research assistant in the Soviet Navy headquarters. That’s cool.
Yeah. So she was a historian, but she also didn’t quite go back to full civilian life. Now unfortunately, as with many other soldiers, Pavlchenko would suffer for many years of PTSD and depression.
And in October 10th, 1974, Lupimila Pavlchenko passed away after suffering a stroke. Hmm. It’s still really young. It’s still really young, but just a reminder, she’s one of 2,000 female snipers and one of 500 of whom who would survive the war.
Angie: That is crazy to know that that is what, a quarter of them? I’m a historian, not a math nerd, so don’t. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Theresa: Now she’s also one of the only women who survived to receive a Hero of the Soviet Union Award while she’s alive. Now some estimates would place her kill count much higher. This still, the 309 makes her one of the most successful snipers in modern warfare. Period.
Who cares? 309 hash marks on the side of your gun. That’s awesome. There’s two commemorative Soviet postage stamps printed in her honor. One in 1943 following her battle career and the second one in 1976 following her death. Oh wow, okay. Now today in Russia, Pavlchenko is remembered as a military hero and is known for the most successful female sniper in history.
Angie: I think it’s safe to say that’s across the board, I think. Yeah. That’s impressive. I’m going to tell you that I legit have no idea how to turn to my story because I just want to sit in your story for the rest of the day. And mine is nothing like yours at all.
Theresa: I’m used to this. Typically we don’t go down the same rabbit holes. That’s true.
Angie: That’s true. Well, I’m just going to do it. Okay. So I, you’re going to hate this. Oh no. It’s you’re not going to hate it for the reason you think you’re going to hate it. Just it’s anyway, you’ll you’ll figure it out. Okay. I don’t know. I think it’s obvious. I don’t know if I’ve ever shared out loud with you my love for the French court, but probably feels right.
Theresa: Yeah. Yeah. I’m well aware. We’ve you have a favorite mistress for nearly every monarch. I do. You’re right. Hose in different region codes.
Angie: Hey, listen, we all got to have a hole in a code, you know, just just saying. So for me, you know, how you see those charts that are like every history, every history girlie went through the phase of like loving Egypt. And at the end of the day, it always ends up the Titanic. Like there’s like a timeline of eras.
Theresa: I never did the Titanic myself, but carry on.
Angie: Yeah. Oh, OK. That’s wild. All right. Anyway, for me, the French court falls very, very hard middle of that for me. And I’ve been a big fan ever since I am specifically obsessed with Marie Antoinette as we probably all have had a moment of being like, oh, this crazy, this crazy broad.
I love her. Anyway, that that’s fun. I thought it would be fun to not go super unhinged, but tell you the story of her favorite. So she’s not unhinged, like Jack Churchill or Lieutenant Nun. But I think that because she is not Marie Antoinette, her story is lesser known. OK. And that makes it fun for me because she is a very relevant person, especially in this time, but she’s not Marie Antoinette.
So she’s not like super talked about, I guess, at least to me. Maybe I’m wrong. But anyway. So I am going to tell you the story of a Yolanda, Martin, Gabrielle, the post from the Duchess, the cognac.
OK. Yeah, it’s fun. OK, so the Volgar History Podcast has a really great episode on her. And in the episode, it also covers some of like the ins and out of court life at their side because it is wild. Like it’s nuts.
But this episode is not about that. A author called Catherine Corzon has a great website that’s just about the Duchess of Polyneac. And it is called Be Confident to the Queen. There is historyofroyalwomen.com. And then unofficial royalty also has an article, but it was very short, which made me very sad for the Duchess of Polyneac. So she is born in Paris on September 8, 1749. She is born into this very titled, very aristocratic family. But they, despite the fact they are very noble and they come from like a very old noble house. They are very suffering in the financial department. Like this is actually not unusual at the time. You could be very, very aristocratic and also broke.
Theresa: Yeah, you’re going to tell your daughters off to strategic marriages to refill the coffers. Right.
Angie: OK. So despite the fact that she is from a very old noble family, they’re living very relatively modest lifestyles. She spends the first three years at their families. I’m going to butcher this. Chateau de Nuelles, it’s in southern France. And there are sources that say it’s not much better than a glorified mud hut.
I personally was like, I don’t I feel like when you have Chateau at the beginning, it’s going to be better than a glorified mud hut. But I couldn’t find any remaining. Like there’s no artwork to show what it looks like. So or what it looked like that I could find.
So I don’t really know for sure. But when she was just three years old, her mother dies. There are some that suggest it may have been mysterious circumstances and just some that assume we just don’t have the info anymore, which it could be both.
Who knows? But following her mother’s death. So she’s three. Following her mother’s death, her up. Green her upbringing is left to an aunt who sends her and like funds her education at this convent.
Because this makes sense, right? Like you’re either going to join the nunnery or you’re going to be put on the marriage market. But either way, you need some sort of education.
Theresa: Yeah, you need to be able to be enlightened at the dinner table.
Angie: Exactly. So that’s that’s sort of her situation. So at this point in her story from like three to like probably 15, we don’t know much about her childhood. What we do know is that she is gorgeous.
So like the nunnery is not really an option for her. She’s got this long, dark hair, fair skin, these stunning violet eyes. Oh, she’s I know, right? She’s lively. She’s naturally beautiful. And she has this very calming demeanor and a lot of sources say that that really makes up for her lack of wit and finances because people just like naturally gravitate towards her because of the energy she’s putting off is nice.
Theresa: So she has the charisma of a Disney princess.
Angie: That’s sort of what yeah, that’s sort of what my brain was like. Oh, okay. So she’s Cinderella. Like she’s nice and calm and we love her. So she about 16, 15, 16, she gets engaged. However, her engagement is two years long. So thankfully she is 18 years old by the time she is married and not a child. Like she is not 14 getting married.
That made me really happy to know. In this two years engagement, she is marrying a man called hopefully I got to his name, right? Jules Francois are mom, the Pontiac, and he is the Marquis de Mancini. And this is hilarious movies. I don’t know if where you’re located you have Mancini sleepwear, but all I can think of is the mattress store.
Theresa: Yeah, no, I don’t know anything about this.
Angie: Oh, I’m so sad for you. But anyway, so he is the Marquis de Mancini. Now, this marriage is going to join two of France’s like most ancient, most noble homes. But that said, they are both suffering in financial apartment, which seems weird. Like you would think that both sides would be trying to build an advantageous financial marriage here to sort of get themselves out of the muck they’re in.
But whatever, it is what it is. One of the things that they have going for them is that, like besides their good looks and charm, is that he is the nephew of Madame etiquette. And for like the sake of time, this is a long standing figure at Versailles who literally like runs the etiquette rules of Versailles.
His name, like that’s the nickname. And that gives her because she is like the mistress of rules. Like this is how we walk. This is how we talk. This is how we open the door. This is how I hate her. I don’t blame you. Um, she she feels like the fun governor to me. Yeah. Oh, I don’t think her.
Theresa: Yeah.
Angie: Like she had this rule that the Volver History Podcast talks about this. Her, her rule for knocking on doors was that you didn’t knock. You scrapped. I believe it was your left pinky nail. And like, so it just had to be loud enough for the doorman on the other side to hear you, but not loud enough to bother anybody inside. Like she had some rules and this benefits them because she is a long standing figure at Versailles, right? So like this is pain in the butt for us who are modern people that are like this knock on the freaking door. Yeah.
Theresa: But anyway, maybe not cop knock, but let’s.
Angie: Yeah, we don’t need to. I can’t like anyway. So the other the other thing to point out is currently her husband. He does have a job. He is an officer of the Royal Jagoon. But like it doesn’t pay a ton. It is not life at Versailles money. You know what I mean?
Like, right? We can afford to live in the suburbs outside of the main city center where rent is cheaper, but we cannot afford to live downtown. Yeah, you’re not going to penthouse. Yeah. Here’s where I might get a little confused for just a second, but I hope that I whittled down the names enough so that it’s sort of a straightforward. They get invited to their side by Diane Dupontak. She is not the thing. Oh, she’s not the mistress. She is the sister in law to Gabrielle. So her husband’s sister.
Diane has served as a lady from what I understand in the record, she served as a lady in waiting both to King Louis sister and to the count the contest. D’Artois. And Artois is King Louis, younger, way more charming, way more handsome brother. Like he’s the brother everybody loves.
Like he’s the guy, right? And so all the Gabrielle and her husband, they get invited to Versailles and like the funny thing is to me, like I need to rewind and say this. Diane is doing really, really well at court. And so because she’s doing well at court and because she’s female, she is expected to bring her family in with her and like help elevate them. So that’s why she invites Gabrielle and Jules to court with her. It’s like 1775 and rant when it’s only been queen for like a year.
And Gabrielle and her husband, they are formally presented to the King Queen and rant when it is like immediately taken by her. That sources say it was this calm, easygoing nature that my aunt was like, Oh, thank God. I think I love you.
You’re fantastic. It’s possible they may have met earlier at the Royal Wedding in 1770, but it wasn’t until this meeting that Miranda actually was given the chance to like properly be introduced to this young lady. So for like visual context, they are being formally introduced in the hall of mirrors, which is gorgeous. And she’s gorgeous and the queen is absolutely dazzled. She thinks she is the most charming soothing human being she’s ever met. She’s super unpretentious. She’s not looking for power or sway for herself. She’s like not ambitious in that way at all, which I find totally amusing because the rest of her side is like. This is just trying to live her life. Yeah.
Happened to find herself here, right? And I feel like for rant when this is the friend that you know, you could just like wear your ugly sweatpants with and like judge bad TV quietly. I think you don’t have to talk to each other.
Theresa: We’re, you know, I didn’t clean house for you and that’s okay. Right.
Angie: Exactly that. And so for her, for my aunt when that’s specifically like this is a big deal. And I cannot stress this enough because I think it sets a lot of things in motion. Because also King Louis sees this friendship and is like, I will give Marie Antoinette whatever she wants.
Whatever we need to have done to make Gabrielle be like a position here will happen because she helps call my wife. Like, oh, she she is, I think because right, like when you look at Marie Antoinette in this light, you’re seeing this young lady who has been brought from Austria, who had to literally give up everything she knew, including a language to. Engra sheate herself into this society and it’s so hoity-toity and so top end everything and she’s just a young lady that’s like, I wasn’t like, I wasn’t supposed to be here. And so there’s a lot of these things that are very stressful for her. Also, she has yet to produce an error.
So these things are happening. And so I think like emotionally just for her to have a friend that was unpretentious and didn’t need to have any of that sort of pageantry was probably the best thing ever for her. But like I said, this sets things in motion by this point by the point that they like meet and they become friends. Gabrielle’s about 26 years old and she already has like four kids.
Theresa: Oh, OK, OK, so that would help you down to earth as well.
Angie: Right, like she’s a little bit older than re-entoinette. She is obviously seen a little bit more like the, I don’t want to say the harsher part of the world, but she’s seen things.
Right. She’s done things that are still re-entoinette is like, I still, I’m still trying to have babies. I’m still trying to be a queen. I’m still trying to do all this.
And and Gabrielle is like, Hey, take a breath. We will sort it out. We’ll figure it out. So she becomes the queen’s BFF like right off the bat and the queen tells her she wants her to move in to their size so she can always be close. And this is huge, like for a multitude of reasons. One is that there’s sort of a housing shortage at their side. Ten thousand people a day come to their site, even at this point, there are nobles like living in the attic just to say they live there. Oh, geez.
And Gabrielle and Jules, they’re like, Hey, this is what an honor, but we have to be real with you. This is huge, but we can’t afford it. We can’t afford to live at their side. We are so broke because of their site is incredibly expensive.
Theresa: We’re on that beer budget and you’ve got champagne taste. Yeah.
Angie: Um, and to me, I think this must have been for her to have the balls to be like, Yeah, I would love to, but, um, we can’t. This must have been like highly respected by the queen because she immediately clears the family’s debts. Like all all family debts are paid off. They give her apartments that are like massive. And these apartments are really close to Marie Antoinette’s personal apartments. This also allows for Marie Antoinette to give her husband a more favorable position.
Like within the court that pays more. So you would think you would think all of this would be just fine. Except for these other nobles that have been living at their side this whole time and have been part of like the old guard are looking down on this. Like, well, why does she just get to jump the line? Yeah, look at that.
That’s our right. Like what’s going on? This isn’t how this works. This isn’t the hierarchy of things. Why does she have these apartments? We’re living in the roof.
Like all this roof, I’ve got a closet. Pretty much like that’s what’s happening. By 1780, they’re made the Duke and Duchess to Pontiac. And this also does not help them win favor with anybody else but the royal family. So it’s not great.
Like I said, there are 10,000 people a day. They’re all like vying for greater position and they have been there for years. And traditionally in a situation like this, specifically in France, I can’t speak to anywhere else, but I’m sure it’s very similar. The roles that they’re handing out, that the King and Queen are handing out at this time, they’re usually handed down like hereditary. So if you’re like, for example, and I’ll get to this later, but like if your grandmother was the children’s governess, the likelihood that you would then be is very high because that’s just how it’s always been.
Because you deserve it. Like that’s what your family has done and that’s what your family will continue to do. And so Louis and Rant and that are shaking a ton of stuff up because they’re not following you through hereditary rules.
Theresa: They’re like, actually, we’re actually really bad with children. So we’re going to.
Angie: Yeah. We’re like going to put the people that we actually like in these roles because A, we like them. B, they might actually be a little bit more qualified to do the job. And C, we trust them.
We don’t actually know you. So for the King and Queen, they’re looking at it from the perspective of like surrounding themselves with the circle of people they trust and that they care for. But for the people on the outside, they’re looking in and thinking, oh, they’re building like this cabal.
And we’re all about to be outstead. All that to say, they’re not really popular with anyone outside of the royal family. And then it gets worse because in 1782, Gabrielle’s appointed as the governess of the royal children, which does not just mean like she is the nanny to Marie Antoinette’s kids. This means that she oversees the children of their side, like their day to day, their ins and outs.
And it’s likely that, first of all, I should say this position is open. It’s not, she didn’t boot anybody out to put Gabrielle in this position. But she did not put in the position the family that has normally served in this role because they’ve got some of their own scans. Scandal stuff going on in the background.
And I think from Marie Antoinette, she’s looking at this and going, oh, well, I want my best friend who clearly loves my children to be the person in charge of my children. Right.
Theresa: Maybe they’re too busy with this petto scandal. So we’re just going to.
Angie: Yeah, I believe this scandal involved some financial stuff, but I don’t, I didn’t get a ton into that backstory because it was just relevant right now for this moment, but not for the whole of the story. You know, but one of the things that happens once she becomes the governor, the royal children is she gets a bigger apartment in Versailles and a cottage at the Queen’s Petit Trillon.
So like other people are again looking out and being like, well, this is BS. Why don’t we have a cottage at Petit Trillon? Right. But as we all know, this is what Louie gives her so she can escape day to day castle life.
So of course she’s going to give her best friend the cute little house next door. Like sort of makes sense. Yeah.
Anyway, so all of these like things are happening. And one of the sides that I think is really cute because they do spend a lot of time at Petit Trillon like. Rantuna is at court like she is doing her daily queenly duties, but then when that’s done, she is escaping to her cute little hamlet down the down the row and her Gabrielle and the Princess DeLambal, who is her other like bestie. They’re like a trio of best friends. They have these portraits painted by this artist called Elizabeth Vieja Lebron. And they’re like these very pastorial like they’re wearing linen dresses with fresh flower hats. And it kind of even though they’re individual portraits, it gives the vibe of like this is what you would do when you want to have like a photo shoot with your best friend. Okay, so it’s that grammar glamour glamour glamour glamour portrait.
Theresa: Sort of yeah, but it’s very like think whimsy springtime like very cute, very fun. Absolutely love it. But here’s about the point where things do get a little unhinged. If it’s not totally obvious girl here has a lot of influence over Marie Antoinette and this is a good thing for Marie Antoinette and King Louis, but it is not a good thing for everyone else.
And here is part of the problem. Historically, especially in the French court, the king has a mistress. Gotcha. And our boy Louis does not. Now, typically in the French court, your queen, her job is to have the king’s children and host these gala events and be this sort of beautiful thing that sits on the throne next to him.
Right. But the role of the mistress is a little bit different. First of all, there is a mistress’s household. So because King Louis doesn’t have a mistress, he doesn’t have a mistress’s household. And so people are out of a job. Gotcha.
Theresa: So he’s impacting the company by staying faithful.
Angie: I know. Weird. The other side to this is in the past. The mistress has had this role of sort of political figurehead. Like she is setting standards. She’s setting fashion. She has got the king’s ear in the realm of the kingdom and how it should be run. And if it all goes to hell in a handbasket, you just blame the mistress. The mistress is escaped.
Like these mistresses are coming into this role knowing this. So you have to be smart. They have to be great conversationalists. They have to be able to see the world around them and see what’s happening. Like I am imagining DeBarry has spies.
You know what I mean? Like they know what’s up so that they can fully inform the king that this is politically what’s happening in your country. This is politically what’s happening in your court.
This is what we need to do. But King Louis doesn’t have that. So not only is there a ton of people without a job because there’s no mistress’s household. The people of France are looking for a scapegoat. So that becomes Rantmint and the Duchess of Pontiac because if the king doesn’t have a favorite, the queen does. So they start to print all of this.
I don’t want to put this. Because they’re looking for someone to blame. And because they’re in the situation there and they start putting all this propaganda that is often very graphic and very pornographic. They’re pamphlets.
They’re called LaBelle’s. And they show Gabrielle and the queen in some very intimate loving embraces. And so gossip starts spreading that they are obviously lesbian lovers.
Now here’s the thing. People know they’re not. But people are looking for a scapegoat and propaganda works like it does its job. And people are trying to blame. We have to hate somebody and they need a crime.
And so this is obviously the crime. Like they’re lesbian lovers and the queen is not being faithful to the king. And that’s not okay. But it’s totally okay for the king to have a mistress.
Theresa: Yeah, because of succession. But there’s not going to be a succession issue if both are women. But right.
Angie: So there’s like, anyway, I love propaganda. Propaganda was something I studied a lot in my lower college years. And in this particular case, it really works. Like the propaganda is gnarly and it really paints ranch net in this very like lustful and debauchery way when like she is literally just trying to survive. Like I am a ranch net apologist here. And I know that through and through, but this propaganda was gnarly.
Like I don’t need to be an apologist to point that out. So anyway, there is this like understanding that while Louis was faithful, it is possible Marine may not have been completely faithful, but there’s no definitive proof. And it was not with Gabrielle. She had a, I can’t think of it. I didn’t put his name in my notes, but he was like one of the captains of the guards, but sort of military men.
But anyway, what we do know is that more than likely Gabrielle wasn’t entirely faithful to her husband and has an affair with this rather rakish dude that ranch net is not super fond of his name. Cause it’s so fun to say is Joseph Hyacinth Francois de Paul de Regan, Comte de Valdille, and he is the captain of the Royal Guard. Okay. Sorry. Hyacinth.
Theresa: I, I have a hard time finding somebody attractive if they have a rather flowery name that sounds like it is the potpourri scent. Yeah.
Angie: But also like this is France and everybody has that flowery sounding name, right? Um, but Marie Antoinette is not fond of him. Like she, she is not about this guy. I don’t, I don’t know that there’s ever exactly an argument between her and Gabrielle, but there is some rumors that are being spread that Gabrielle’s youngest child is actually the captain of the guards.
And as these rumors are being spread, the royal family completely dismiss them. They’re like, absolutely not. That’s no, she’s, she’s perfect. She would never that sort of thing. But for whatever reason, and maybe it is because the queen didn’t like her girls bow, the girls sort of, um, they get a little distance, but regardless of distance or space, Gabrielle remains like the fierce protector of the queen and her inner circle.
But in like 1785, Gabrielle takes a trip to England. I’m wondering if it’s because like just to clear this whole like scandal. Yeah.
Sort of thing. She takes a trip to England and while she is there, she means another power player in the world of history and fashion. Georgiana, the Duchess of Devonshire, which I think is so freaking cool and didn’t realize they lived at the same time, but she comes home to France and when she returns to France, bygones are bygones and the ladies are thick as thieves again and like, it’s like nothing ever happened. But revolution is on the horizon.
And both Gabrielle and the calm daughter, the king’s younger, cooler, more handsome brother are very vocal in their stance for the monarchy. And this is proving to be problematic for them and like everyone else. Right. And by this point, King always sort of sees the writing on the wall and when he’s the the best in the best deal falls, he orders the Polyac family to leave France, but like for all that is good and faithful in this world, please get out of the country. And they listen.
Right. Um, so they, they flee to the comfort and safety of places like Switzerland, Italy and Austria. By this point, it’s like 1789 and she’s in exile, right? So, but that doesn’t stop her and Lance that they continue to write back and forth to each other and these letters, I’ve only heard bits and pieces of them, but they’re very flowery. They’re very beautiful. You can tell they have a very close bond.
I wouldn’t say that based on these, these letters are they lovers, but, um, some people have and that I guess is just up to your opinion. Like, well, we’re never going to know. Right. Um, however, they would never see each other again because Gabrielle could only stand by and watch from afar as the rain of terror tears her friends lives apart and like, despite all the efforts to save the Royal family, they are well and truly exhausted. And then she gets the news that on October 16th, 1793, Lance has met the guillotine.
Geez. She falls terribly ill and dies less than two months later on December nine, 1793 in Vienna, Austria, Vienna, Austria. Her at the tath reads, she died of sorrow.
Oh, right. Like that broke my heart because they don’t have, she gets the news, and Leanne Tannette has dead and she just immediately is like taken with this sickness and doesn’t last two months before that’s just it. She just takes the last breath. But I think her story is really important because it’s sort of like all encompasses shows the fall of the, like the ancient regime. Like, yeah, she rose to this, like skyrocketed to this power so fast and just as fast as she got it, it was gone.
And to me, like you can, you can look at their story from the perspective of like, oh my gosh, they’re just rich white ladies, like being rich white ladies. Like we’ve been, we’ve been doing this for centuries. They’re never going to learn that sort of thing. Like they needed to feed their people better. All the things that you could say that were wrong about the French court at this time are probably accurate. But the other side to that is there are real people here and she had to watch her best friend, Piquetine.
Yeah. And couldn’t do anything about it. Like despite the massive efforts that went into saving the royal family and getting them out of France, they could not be saved. And so I just like, I really think about them specifically from like a very real standpoint of like, these are just women who just wanted to live. Yeah.
You just find yourself here. Yeah. And so for me that like that makes their story so real, but her story in particular is like, dang girl, like you, you had a run, like you were born poor, but with a name and you were, you were not pretentious. You were just trying to go about your day. You had a good husband. You had a good life. And then you had this great life for 20 years. And then just like that, gone. What was that like? Like how, how, how could, it’s crazy to me, but that’s the story of the Dutchess de Plumiek.
She’s played by Rose Byne in the Miranda and that Sophia Copeland movie, which I absolutely love, but is totally historic. Inaccurate. Okay. I don’t think I’ve seen it. Oh, it’s so cute. Kirsten Dunn plays Marie Antoinette and it is, it is one of those movies, like I said, completely historically inaccurate. Um, but one of those movies that is so colorful and so beautifully shot that you can’t like, I’ve probably watched it a hundred times. I love that movie.
It’s so cute. But it does tell her whole life story in a very, um, Sophia Copeland way. That’s what I’m going to say. You should watch it. But not before you go watch the league of, um, the ministry of gentlemen warfare.
Theresa: And I need to do that. I need to do this thing where I actually turn on the TV and watch stuff.
Angie: Cause I honestly get it together. Would I? Please.
Theresa: But you, I mean, well, if you’re thinking, holy crap, I too need to get it together, rate, review, subscribe, send us to your most put together person. And then your least put together person, let them argue about who’s who. They probably know.
Angie: And then can you please send us the results because we love gossip. That’s not our own.
Theresa: Yeah. I mean, the train wreck is better when you’re, when you’re watching. Yeah.
Angie: And you don’t know anybody involved. It’s perfect. If you could just help us out. Yeah.
Theresa: And on that note, goodbye. Bye.
Theresa: Oh, you. Honk.
Unhinged History 
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