Listen to the episode here.

This week’s unhinged stories feature two women largely forgotten by history.

Starting off strong, Theresa tells the story of Madame Montour, the interpreter who spoke English, German, and several Native American languages. Her work as an interpreter brokered several treaties. We have one small problem with Madame Montour – she is history’s most unreliable narrator. Follow along as Theresa lays out a myriad of conflicting sources.

Angie’s story is wildly different, as she regales us with the story of Jane Boleyn, Queen Anne Boleyn’s sister-in-law. Surprisingly, Jane’s story relates to several royal deaths. This woman served three queens in Tudor England before being sentenced for assisting Queen Catherine Howard in her affair.

This episode pairs well with:
Sacagawea
Nell Gwynn

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast. The podcast where two compulsive nut jobs are going to mainline history memes for fun, for giggles. And then we’re going to tell each other the stories our spouses are tired of hearing. I’m host, Juan. I’m Teresa, and that is host two. I’m Angie. 

Angie: Host one, you go first today. Did you know that? 

Theresa: You know, I think I did. I did kind of look it up prior to this whole thing. I have a story that is going to be Teresa coded in some of the ways. Like, I spent a ton of time reading a source and then reading a secondary source that contradicted the first one. So I’ve read the third one that had different information than the first two. So prepare for the rabbit trail. 

Angie: Okay. I love this. This makes me feel so good about my story. 

Theresa: Good. I’m going to tell you the story of Madame Montour. 

Angie: All right. All right. Off the top, that doesn’t ring a bell, so I’m already excited. 

Theresa: Yep. So there’s two sources that have articles titled Madame Montour. One is from Bucknell University. The other is NativeAmericans.org. Then there is a piece titled Madame Montour by John G. Fries. It’s written in 1879, and that hails from the Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography, volume three, number one. 

Then I did another deep dive when I dived into explorations and early American culture, volume four, titled The Celebrated Madame Montour, Interprets, Across Early American Frontiers by Allison Duncan Hirsch. 

Angie: We are still in our Sacagoia era, aren’t we? 

Theresa: Oh, very much so. I love this. It’s cool you bring that up. So Madame Montour, she originally is known, and originally known, there’s an asker there, as Isabelle Kuch. Historian William A. 

Hunter, he tentatively describes her as Elizabeth Kuch, because back then, apparently, Isabelle, Elizabeth, they’re considered the same name. I don’t know if you could hear it. It’s the same thing. Yeah, I mean, yeah. 

Angie: Yeah, it makes sense. 

Theresa: Yeah, I mean, Lizzie one could have been Isabelle one, for all we know. Now, Isabelle. 

Angie: I mean, I think it probably depends on what language you speak, right? Isabelle and Elizabeth are the same. Isabelle’s probably the Spanish version of the English, Elizabeth, or vice versa. 

Theresa: Okay, so. The English version of the Spanish, Isabelle, and the Gald and Michael. Yeah, exactly. All right, and that makes sense. So what we, in one record, have her listed as is a Matisse. Do you know that word? I looked it up, so if you don’t. 

Angie: Go ahead. It’s not familiar, but I’m thinking of a painting, so ignore me. 

Theresa: Oh, yeah, no, that’s an artist, sure. But there is a Indigenous nation in Canada that originated from like the 17th to 19th century, and this occurred between the unions between European fur traders and First Nation women. Okay. Okay. Now, definitely not the painter then. 

Exactly. Now, her father seems to have been French born and her mother is Algonquin. The father, and there’s so many asterisks here, is likely Pierre Cooch de la Four, and he is a fur trader and interpreter. Her mom could be a woman Marie-Nathiel-Mia-Goukouille, and she’s a Christian Algonquin. She’s born in Three Rivers, Canada, in 1667. She’s recorded as one of five children to Pierre Cooch de la Fiert. Pierre, he seems to have come to New France from Cognac as a soldier in the early 1650s. I almost gave him an extra hundred years. And by… Good for you. I mean, look, he’s a vampire, and by 1660, he’d become an interpreter in that same region. 

This is midway between Montreal and Quebec on the St. Lawrence River. Okay. All right. 

Got it. Now, 1657, Pierre married Marie, and in this, he fulfilled the promise of Champlain. Champlain, I’m sure you know, founded Quebec. I mean, this is… We have no idea, let’s be honest. Now, Champlain, he ended up saying years before he was Indian allies, quote, our young men will marry your daughters and we shall be one people. 

Angie: I love it. Also, I don’t love it. But anyway, here we go. 

Theresa: I mean, if everybody’s consensual, sure. Yeah. 

Angie: That’s what I was thinking. I love it, but then I was like, how many… How many of daughters actually were like down with this idea? 

Theresa: It depends how much they appreciated their fathers. I suppose that’s true. Yeah. Now, her father, Pierre, and her mom, Marie, or Angelique, again, so many contradictions here. They write their names using the surname Cooch and Isabelle and her sisters continue to do this after marriage and this seems to be in accordance to French custom. Now, her oldest brother, Louis, he signed at the newly adopted single name Monture. This name puzzles historians and would go on to do so for at least another hundred years because Monture sounds French even though the closest French word is menture, lyre. Obviously, if he’s going to be a trapper and develop trust as a trader, this isn’t the last name you want. 

Okay. So, this is kind of like, quoi? Now, his descendants are able to parlay the name Monture into acceptance by the elite of Montreal. 

Later generations are going to go on to believe that the family is entirely genteel French ancestry. Okay. So, put a pen in this because what you’re hearing is a lot of reinvention. 

Angie: Good. It’s good for rebranding, you know. Yeah. 

Theresa: Oh, no, no, no, no. We are the noble liars. Okay, Jack Sparrow. Pretty much. Now, 1684 Elizabeth’s last Isabel married a dude named Joachim Germano and she has at least one child with Germano or she could have married a dude named Roland Monture who is a brave of the Seneca’s. The piece in Pennsylvania magazine, the sites that she had five kids with Roland. 

Angie: And he had the same last name as her brother? So, hold on to that thought. 

Theresa: Put murder board happy. Yeah. Basically get the red string ready. Got it. Okay. 

Theresa: Our girl doesn’t help any paragraph in this story. Perfect. Got it. All right. So, I think the word unreliable narrator, this is our woman. 

Angie: I, that is so funny that you say that. I woke up this morning thinking about unreliable narrators. Yeah, I’m here for you. 

Theresa: This is why I have been obsessing about this story. Okay, I’m here for it. Let’s go. Because everything ties into everything else and there are no clean lines and everybody disagrees with everybody else. Let’s go. And I’ll explain, I’ll get to the why everybody disagrees with everybody else. Now, by 1690s, she’s living with two of her sisters and their husbands, and I’m going to butcher so many words, brace for impact. She’s living in the Chile-Nikinac in the Great Lakes region. 

Angie: You said that one more time. That was just really fun to watch you say. Chile-Nikinac. I love it. Let’s go. Yep. 

Theresa: Several family members are working as interpreters at the fur trading center and there’s evidence that Elizabeth slash Isabelle work as an interpreter for Antoine de Moth Cadillac, who is a local French commander for the French garrison. We got a Cadillac up in here. 

Angie: I want to see this spelling so bad. 

Theresa: It’s probably not like you think it is. Now, there’s rumors that she interpreted him for, or in quote, his most secret business, unquote, particularly clandestine meetings and a hayloft with the local Huron chief. Cadillac would go on to deny these charges and he would continue to be an asshole and say things like he never would have employed such a degenerate woman, the daughter of a Frenchman and a savage. Oh, how nice of him. Yeah. So he wears his bigotry loud and proud. Well, at least you know where he stands. Honestly. And that kind of makes me think that he actually did do these shady dealings. I’d have to agree with you. 

Angie: Now, like it’s that whole like hiding like van plain sight sort of thing. Yeah. 

Theresa: We think he does protest too much. Yeah. No, I wouldn’t have done the shady thing because you’re telling me I did the shady thing. 

Theresa: And employed a half-breed. Oh, my God. 

Theresa: No, no, I would do the shady thing. But I wouldn’t do it and talk to a woman. 

Angie: She didn’t even have pants on. 

Theresa: She’s wearing a dress. Oh, you’re right. The dress. Okay. I was thinking money to poo for a second. All right. Now, 1701 French garrison moved to Fort Bolchitrain day Detroit and Elizabeth in this record, she’s known as Isabelle, they moved there too. Now she’s with her second husband, a man named Pierre, Tinnit, Tinchinette. And she’s known here as Madame Tinchinette or simply La Channette. Basically, our girls collecting AKAs. Love this for her. Now, she’s described as always having been friend of the proprietary government. So, okay. Our girls here to help those in power. And it’s the second marriage with Pierre Tinchinette that enhances her reputation. 

Angie: So she’s not just a half-breed savage anymore. Yeah. Now she’s- Compliance Cadillac. Yeah. 

Theresa: Although Cadillac isn’t too kind to her. And in other sources that I edited out, believe it or not. Now, she’s described- her family are describing what’s called the Indian trade. I have a feeling this is for trading and things like that. It doesn’t seem to have the negative connotations as the phrase Indian trader. Okay. 

Okay. Now, at the Fort on Lake Erie, she enters into this tour d’affaires with a French explorer, which of course she would enter into a tour d’affaires. The dude’s name is Etienne Des Vineards. Sir Des Bourgments. 

I mean, he’s got like 12 names. Now, good for her. When Bourgments deserves the Fort in 1706, she leaves too. And they and a couple of other deserters go to a group on an island in Lake Erie. 

Angie: Now, there’s- I know nothing about the Great Lakes and it just hit me that there are islands in the Great Lakes. Yeah. 

Theresa: Like basically like our girl loves islands. I’m going to keep saying that often and it’s never Tahiti. You know. Okay. But she’s still about that beach life even if it’s cold. Now, one deserter- Beautiful beach. Truth. So one deserter who later gets caught would say that she had for a long time let a scandalous life with Bourgments, who had quote debauched her. 

Angie: Oh, good for him. 

Theresa: I mean, you know, look, if what happens between two consenting adults, but basically- Stays in Vegas. Our girl is out living her life now. Just showing her wild out. Exactly. Now, she, Bourgmont and her brother Montour, Louis Montour. Okay. 

Like so here’s where everything is just convoluted. They’re supposedly hiding out near Lake Erie with about 15 bundles of beaver skins and they’re planning to go to the English to reside there forever. Okay. So Madame Montour is on Madame Montour’s side. 

Okay. Now, 1909, it’s May 16th, an unusual woman arrives in Albany, as the head of a Mississauga party from the west of Lake Erie. Madame Montour, as the New Yorkers called her, appeared to be French by birth, but seemed to be complete Indian in her dress and way of life. 

She spoke French, English, several Indian languages from both Algonquin and Iroquoian linguistic groups, and this enables her to handle three-way interpretation between the Ojibwe speaking, the Iroquoie, and the English. That is so cool. Yeah. That is so cool. 

Okay. But now, who was she? Where did she come from? Where did she learn to speak these languages? Depending on who asks, she gives various answers to the European men who record her story. 

Angie: Good for…because you know what? Good for her. 

Theresa: Keeping guessing. Exactly. Because in New York, she’s the daughter of a French gentleman, an Indian mother. In Pennsylvania, she’s a French woman who lived among the Indians because she was kidnapped as a child. Okay. So basically, she’ll figure out whatever bend you’re likely to accuse her of being, and she’s going to feed that and run. 

I love it. So at some point, at this point truly, that she had separated from the French explorer, she’s living among the English, she’s working as an interpreter for the French Guv, or for the English governor, that would make more sense. Now, that same year, Governor Vaudrill orders the assassination of the most successful fur trader and businessman, Louis Montour. Her brother. Yes. 

Okay. Now, he ends up having been an important link between the Iroquois and the English. So after his murder, Madame Montour emerges as his successor and becomes so important. She is the cultural imediary between these groups. 

That’s cool. Now, she speaks the languages, she’s got a strong network, and apparently she’s got some important familial connections that kind of support and bolster that network of hers. Of course she does. So she’s alone in New York. She found employment as the interpreter for Governor Robert Hunter. And through this work, she becomes acquainted with an Oneida chief named Karen Duana. And he eventually is going to become her husband because she’s racking up a body count. This is like number three. 

Angie: Maybe. Depending on how you count things. I think number three, legally. Okay. And together they’re going to have a son named Andrew Montour. He’s going to be known as Henry and a couple of other names because Collect Daily is the one where you can. Yeah. And later, I don’t get into the story, but he would grow up to be a well-known interpreter in Pennsylvania, Virginia, as would his son, John Montour. 

Okay, that’s cool. So she established the language. He was family through the life. Yeah. She might have had other children, but it’s really difficult to know because Iroquois sources describe a woman’s nieces and nephews as her children as well. 

Angie: Oh, okay. So we don’t really have a full count. 

Theresa: We don’t. So we don’t know if Louis Montour’s child, Louis, also known as Tan Wesson, or French or French Margaret, who’s Catherine Montour, if they were her children or the children of her siblings. Okay. But we have an historian named John Harmenter, who did a bunch of resource, and he said that Madame Montour’s work behind the scenes as facilitator of the cross-cultural cooperation is super important to this region. That after starting out as an interpreter, she would go on to become one of the governor’s most trusted advisors. In 1719, Hunter’s about to leave New York. He’s done with being the governor. And Madame Montour, she’s petitioning for back pay. She threatened this. This is a power move. She threatens to leave the British and she’s claiming that the government of New France sent her sister to persuade her to return to Canada. 

Angie: Oh, so I’m taking my ball and I’m going home. Yeah. 

Theresa: Find somebody else to speak all these languages. Good for her. And in his last act as governor, Hunter recommended that Mrs. Montour receive the, I love this phrasing, yearly encouragement of 10 pounds. 

Angie: I will forever be referring to my paycheck as my bimonthly encouragement. Yep. 

Theresa: Now, 10 pounds ends up being around 1,800 pounds, around $2,200. A year? A year. But this is four times the amount of a soldier’s pay. The average soldier. So it’s a drop in the bucket to what we would get. But. 

Angie: Right. Okay. She is highly valuable. 

Theresa: Very much so. So. 1727 there is a man named chief. She Calamity, who comes to Shmokin and he meets with her husband. Karan, Dwana her and her children and they travel alongside him and she serves as an interpreter during the time. And we’ve got records of the governor recording a thoughts on her and giving her $5 in credit or five pounds in credit, which is just 100, 900 pounds now, or just under $1,200. And today’s money. Okay. 

Angie: You know what? That’s $1,200 in groceries. Right. Now. 

Theresa: There ends up being a land claim issue around this time that madam on tours helping with the governor claims that William Penn purchased the land. And Penn is in the founder of Pennsylvania. I was just going to ask that. Thank you. You’re welcome. And the heat William Penn purchased the land decades earlier from the governor of New York and the Iroquois had deed it over. Okay. 

Okay. So you’re getting that full map here and then Pennsylvania would confirm that purchase at the 1722 conference in Albany. So basically they’re showing the paper trail of Providence saying this is land. 

We own it because we got it the Iroquois gate or deed in Governor New York and then I bought it from him. Now there’s a snarky statement implying the native peoples should have been completely aware of this, but they seem to be lacking. Isabelle Montour translate this message and seems to have omitted the sarcastic tone in the original speech. 

Oh, okay. So she’s she’s editing on the fly trying to keep diplomat in this piece. Now here’s where I’m going to add some of that mythos some of that doing it for the lore because Madame Montour by some writers is alleged to have been a daughter of French governors in Canada and had the end to have been a lady in manners, style and education. It’s during this time that she’s mingling with the best society in Philadelphia and she possessed great attractions of mind and person. 

Angie: Good for her. So our girl place here for it. 

Theresa: And it’s after this herner husband move exactly why we don’t truly know but her husband being the United Chief is an important local leader and was a spokesman for the Shawnee in Pennsylvania. 

Okay. So it’s her time now because she is who she is. She becomes an important advisor to Pennsylvania officials and she’s also working for private traders. And she is for instance mentioned as an interpreter for the council between Governor Patrick Gordon and the illiquid delegation that took place in Philadelphia. 

So she’s in the who’s who she’s in the room where the where it happens right where it happened. All right. Yeah. Now during this time her her husband and Chief Scalami. She clammy. 

They end up all benefiting from or me back up the United Diplomat Chief. She clammy. He benefits incredibly from Madame Montor and her husband’s experience and expertise. But her husband is killed in a fight against the Southern Codaba who are the traditional enemies of the Iroquois and this happens in an Indian raid in 1729. And it’s after this that she clammy ends up excluding Madame Montor from the diplomatic circles. 

Okay. Now he’s seeking to tighten his control over the contracts between the Iroquois and the Europeans. So he starts partnering with a Dutch pioneer. Of course. Yeah. 

Now this happens. She’s kind of kicked out of the room for whatever reason because her husband dies. And so she spends her time traveling back and forth between Shimokin and now what is presentville Montor’s vision. And so she’s going to go back to Shimokin and she’s going to go back to Montor’sville Pennsylvania. So she would give her name to the location she’s currently living. Good for her. Now this is where her son and her maybe niece French Margaret live. 

Okay. Now the last surviving entry that we have is her mentioned as present at the council in an official capacity in Pennsylvania. And that’s in 1734. Eventually she’s going to withdraw from life, remain in Montor’sville and she ends up focusing on training her son for the skills that he would need to be an interpreter and diplomat. So she’s investing in that next generation. Good for her. She’s one of the few Shimokin females that was deemed influential and significant. Wow. 

Okay. Which we know so little but we have at least this much because of that. Now we know her as being that creative independent woman who speaks English German, which seemed new. I didn’t see that previous one, Algonquin, Iroquois and French, but she ends up being illiterate in all these languages and forced to sign public documents with an X. 

Angie: Because we can see it but we can’t write it. Exactly. 

Theresa: And so despite her being credited with being well educated, she seems to not be. She’s just incredibly good at conning. Okay. Wow. Now, Pennsylvanians believe her parents are French, that her father is the governor of Canada and that she’d been captured and raised by Indians, although it’s likely not true because while she plays into this myth, if she’s kidnapped at 10, and so she doesn’t remember her French parents, I call bullshit. I’ve got many memories before I was 10. Mm-hmm. But either way, she just continues to feed into her own lore. To complicate matters with you more dates, she in 1744 attended the Treaty of Lancaster in Lancaster, Pennsylvania between the six nations and the colonial governments of Virginia and Maryland. And it’s here that she tells a historian named Mr. Marsh the same story about her being the daughter of a French governor. And she’s just kind of telling her full story. 

Angie: However she means necessary to tell it. 

Theresa: Peppering in different facts, you know, and so we’ve got records that he’s recorded and because of the dates that she gives, we believe that she’s around 60 years old about this time. 

Okay. So the next year she ends up settling on an island in the Susquehanna River, not far from Shemokin, and then in March the following year she would travel with her son crossing the Appalachian Mountains to reach a Native American settlement northwest of the forks of the Ohio. It’s now basically downtown Pittsburgh. And at this point, this seems that she’s suffering from poor eyesight. 

Okay. So she’s getting old, right? Now we don’t have her in any records again until 1753 when a storekeeper and trader basically just writes Madame Montaur is dead. There’s no mention of when she died or how she died. 

Angie: Just gone. This really did feed her own more from the very beginning, didn’t she? Really, completely so. 

Theresa: Now, I just unabashedly copied and pasted this paragraph because it summed up my entire week. Madame Montaur’s identity has mystified historians and chroniclers for more than two centuries. They have called her a French governor’s daughter, a half-breed, and an Indian woman leader. Her name was Madeline or Catherine, Elizabeth or Isabel. Montaur was her surname by birth. No, her surname came from her marriage to a Seneca named Roland Montaur. No, she was married to Louis Montaur. No, Louis was her father, no, her brother. Even the major reference works contradict each other. I salute you. That would have been out. There’s just so many asterisks throughout this entire thing. 

Angie: It would have been like, beloved husband, you’re finding me a new topic. 

Theresa: I wouldn’t let this go and I figured I’m just going to give you the full web and just be like, untangle it will or down. 

Angie: I simply love, I love the idea of unreliable narrators because it’s not always that you’re truly unreliable. Sometimes you’re just telling the story how you want to tell it and that’s how it sounds like in this case. She’s just having fun. Yeah, I think telling what’s going to benefit her the most. 

Theresa: And maybe it was she didn’t think anybody cared or was writing things down. 

Angie: Yeah, who among us thinks that the future is going to come back and look later? You know what I mean? Right, like she’s like, I’m just, 

Theresa: look, it’s just Tuesday, I’m at work. Allow me to screw with my coworkers. I didn’t think they were going to call me influential. I didn’t think they were going to compare notes. This isn’t my fault. I mean, honestly, HR in my defense. 

Angie: Do you have a painting, a sketch or portrait? Nope. 

Theresa: No, she’s born in the late 1600s. What do you want from me? 

Angie: A painting. So she really is just this enigma. We have no real 100% knowledge of her. 

Theresa: Yeah, she could have been completely French. She could have been completely Indian. She could have been somewhere in between. I love that. 

Angie: I’m always down for a good who is it? Yeah, I mean, poster who done it. 

Theresa: You should have just seen me trying to collapse the timeline and get all the sources to pair in and be like, but that was rolling. No, she married Joachim or Joachim or however I say that. No, it was maybe what? 

Angie: I want the scene where three of her husbands meet each other at the same time. Given her that could have happened. 

Theresa: She could have just walked into the bar and been like, you first, you’re afterwards and if they pass away, come into my mouth for you. 

Angie: Yeah, I like it. Wow, all right. So she’s just dead. 

Theresa: We don’t know when we don’t know how she’s just dead. And because she wasn’t around to reinvent it, we don’t have multiple stories. 

Angie: Just the one from a shopkeeper, which is weird. Yeah. I mean, you know, honestly though, good for her. She died the way she lived. Mysteriously. Truth. Oh, man. I have some in notes. Okay. 

I don’t even have, I don’t know how many 180 turns it is to get to my story, but I very much had my heart set on another story and I legit can’t remember what it was about because literally the very last minute, like the night before I was going to write my notes, my husband hit me with this very dis-s-s-quip. Oh my God. No, no, no. Keep searching. Keep searching for all the words. 

Descriptive quote from biographer slash historian Lacey Baldwin Smith saying quote, quote, a pathological meddler with most of the instincts of a procurus who achieves vicarious pleasure from arranging assassinations. Oh, you have my attention. And I was like, I need to know who this is. So I switched stories immediately and then I found out that my person is firmly in the heart of the Tudor era. So you know I’m living my very best life. So I’m going to tell you the story of Jane Bollin. My sources, I know I love the face you’re making right now. 

Go on. My sources are discoverbriton.com. Does Jane Bollin deserve her reputation as the most hated woman in the Tudor court? The author is Henrietta Easton. 

This is from October 25 article. Author Tracy Borman writes for historic royal palaces, which is becoming my national park services. Jane Bollin, Lady Rocheford, the most hated woman in Tudor England. Historicuk.org has an article on her from Emma Goldwyn. Wikipedia has an article on her which believe it or not was rather substantial and I was impressed because I didn’t think it was going to be. And then there is something called the Anne Bollin Files and in the Anne Bollin Files you can read like excerpts from like first person sources of the time. So I was curious to look up an event in her life. 

So there’s my sources. So Jane was born Jane Parker in Norfolk around the year 1505. Her family is super well connected, very wealthy and they’re also politically active. At the time of her birth, her family was very well respected amongst the English nobility. Her father, Henry Parker is the 10th Baron Morley and her mother is Alice St. John. Jane is distantly related to Henry VIII through her mother I think if I followed the map correctly. But regardless it is worth noting that she comes from this very long and powerful family line. Super interesting backstory but anyway. Dad is an intellectual and he has this huge interest in culture and education and while we don’t know much else about her child type I’d like to think that she was probably more educated than your average girl at the time just based on Dad’s hobbies. 

I don’t think he was out there raising girls who don’t know how to read. You know what I mean? Okay. Okay so fast forward it’s about she’s about 14. It’s 1522 and she is sent to join the household of Catherine of Aragon. 

Now in March of 1522 there’s this pageant at York Place which we know today is Whitehall called the Chateau Vert. And it’s to celebrate Shrove Tuesday or as we know it’s Fat Tuesday because I was like what the hell is Shrove Tuesday? 

Theresa: I mean to be fair what the hell is Fat Tuesday? 

Angie: Fat Tuesday is Mardi Gras. Oh. So just a little bit of a cultural difference there on what it’s called. 

Theresa: How are they celebrating Shrove Tuesday? 

Angie: There is pageantry, there’s a massive banquet, there’s I don’t want to say at this particular event there’s mass falls but there’s definitely that sort of gluttonous debauchery that you would expect from somebody celebrating Fat Tuesday. 

Theresa: Okay so it is closer to our Mardi Gras. Similar I don’t think. Maybe less flashing and less beads. 

Angie: Yeah I’m obviously not a time traveler because if I was I would have been able to answer that directly but it seems that it’s more pageantry than anything. Now our girl here she is playing the part at this pageant called consistency which is really perfect when you consider that she outlasts five of Henry’s wives and any other bullies in that court. 

Theresa: So she’s got some saying power. I appreciate that she chose consistency in which case. Right. 

Angie: It is worth mentioning that this pageant is the first time Anne Boleyn is recorded at court. For her part she had been in France serving Queen Claude the consort of Francis I and had only just arrived back in England. 

So Anne is like three maybe four years older than Jane when they meet so there’s not a huge age difference there but just sort of keep in mind that like this them knowing each other matters. Anyway the other players in this pageant were the King’s own sister Mary Tudor who was the previous Queen of France and is simply gorgeous. So she plays the part of beauty naturally. The Countess of Devonshire plays honor Mary Boleyn and Boleyn sister plays kindness and Anne plays perseverance which really seems on point when you think about her story. 

Now there are other ladies playing roles such as Mercy, Bounty, Pity and they’re all in this castle that are guarded by additional ladies playing the role of danger, disdain, jealousy, unkindness, scorn, strangeness and mabush which I think translates to like evil mouth so like don’t gossip. 

Theresa: I mean mabush seems like. Yeah. Yeah. You can see where I want to go. There’s a joke. I can’t find it but there’s a joke there. 

Angie: But it’s there. Yeah. You also have men playing their roles. There’s a role of amorous nobleness, youth, attendance, loyalty, pleasure, gentleness and liberty. The King himself plays the role of ardent desire and together with his men they would make an all-out assault on the castle to rescue their lady virtues. Okay so there’s this belief that each lady was chosen for their role based on her attractiveness. If that’s the case we can assume she was quite lovely. Unfortunately the only surviving image of her is a drawing done by Hans Holblen but we’re not actually 100% sure that it’s her. It’s just titled, I think it’s titled Unknown Tutor Woman. So we’re not 100% it just sort of makes sense like historians keep putting that drawing on her. So anyway back to the right hand. 

Fast forward a couple years. It’s late 1524, early 1525 and our girl Jane is getting married to none other than George Boland who by this point is a bit of a popular guy around court due to the fact that he’s Anne Boland’s brother. So you know let’s staunch up the male line of the family like let’s make them in happy so Henry can get the woman he wants. Like that’s sort of what I’m imagining happening here like we’re gonna make George super popular so Anne keeps finding her way into Henry’s presence and Henry can do his thing right. 

By 1526 he begins his full time of occupation of pursuing Anne. Keep in mind though that Mary, George and Anne’s other sibling had already been in the midst of being the mistress to the king. So this whole family is messy. Oh yeah. Like messy. We don’t really know how long that affair lasted but we know it started sometime after 1520 and it ended fully when Henry was more than smitten with Anne. 

Theresa: But I feel like as messy as it is the sister is the one who kind of gets out scot-free. 

Angie: Sort of yeah in my opinion I think you’d be right. Basically I gave you all that context just to point out that like George is very popular and so Jane having to smash with George is only gonna benefit her. When George and Jane are married Old Hank gives them a grim stone manner in Nelfook and then within a few years George has made the Viscount Rocheford and Jane by default the Viscountess. From that point on Jane would be known at court as Leigh Rocheford. Now you can imagine these two are increasing their wealth and their influence and shortly they’d be given the palace of Belew. If I’m pronouncing that right it’s Bolu, sorry, in Essex. This is gonna be their main home and they spare like no expense decorating it. There’s this rather loudest chapel. 

They have a tennis court. The bathroom has both hot and cold running water which I think is so cool. So just think tons of finery right? Their bedroom alone the bed is draped in gold cloth and the canopy is white satin. 

The quilts are made of linen. So just to point out they are not hurting to pay the bills. As an aside it is really interesting to me about this house and this is not relevant to the story but I found this so fascinating. This house had originally belonged to the Bolan family anyway but they sold it to the king who spends a fortune, 17,000 pounds on it, which is like roughly $17 million today. Remodeling it and expanding it. But then in the early like 1530s it serves as Princess Mary’s home. Princess Mary being Catherine Vargon’s daughter. 

Theresa: Okay so he spends all this money and then gives it to the kid he likes the least. 

Angie: Right but then he banishes her or moves her however you want to say it to Hatfield House and the palace is given to George and Jane. There are no deeds that we know of that were everly formally signed over which sort of leaves me with questions like George and Jane just lived there and like there’s no, there’s intrigue there but that’s irrelevant. Anyway they never have children or at least none that they like formally claim. 

There is a man of the cloth called George Bowen who dies in 1603. Some think that could have been their son but other than the name there’s really no other indicators to suggest that that’s true. For all intents and purposes they don’t have children. And there was this thought for a long time that perhaps they have no children because their marriage is super dysfunctional or George is gay. However there’s like tons of evidence to suggest that he was really into the ladies as a serial flanderer. According to historicroyopalaces.org a contemporary refers to him as a man whose quote appetite was all women to devour. And I don’t think he was great to them from what I can tell. I don’t think he was the charmer you want. 

Theresa: Yeah if you’re going after all of them you’re not taking care of any of them. 

Angie: That’s the image that I’m getting. So here’s what is a little bit juicy. Anne Boleyn, Jane’s sister-in-law becomes queen in 1533 and Jane becomes Lady of the Bed Chamber. And as I mentioned in the Black Tutors episode we know that Lady of the Bed Chamber is like this super important position that is often given to high ranking members of the Queen’s household. 

Right? So excuse me. Early in the summer of 1534 Anne and Jane discover that Henry has a new mistress and they work together to plot her downfall. And I’m like oh ladies. 

Girls girl. This is what I’m hearing. That’s exactly what I heard. Now not related to this mistress but Mary and sister was who had formerly been the mistress of the King was banished from court the same year for marrying for love someone below her station. So we know that the secret mistress is not her but perhaps another Mary, one called Mary Shelton. And as you had mentioned before it seems to be that Mary getting banished from court was probably the best thing for her. She survives. That said whether they’re entirely successful in their attempts to remove the extra mistress it’s irrelevant. But what it does tell us at the very least is that they’re friendly with each other for the purposes of court entry if nothing else. 

But then it gets kind of messy. After this attempt to remove the mistress our girl gets removed from court so like she’s currently banished. Anne at this time really does nothing to try to bring Jane back to court. There’s no like document like petitioning for her or anything like that. So then it should come to no surprise to you to learn that in the next year 1535 there is a bit of a demonstration at Greenwich in support of Princess Mary. 

This is now Anne’s stepdaughter and Mary refuses to acknowledge Anne as queen and honestly good for her. You know what I mean? Like your mom’s been through it. I don’t blame you. Arrests are made and the demonstrators are sent to the power of London. Jane’s name appears among the ring leaders of this rally. 

Theresa: That’s not a good place to have your name pop up. 

Angie: Honestly that said the evidence for this is a handwritten note of unknown authorship and origins. So is it true? Was she there? Was she really a ring leader? Either way at some point after a few months away from court she does make it back into everybody’s good graces. So I have to assume that even if she was involved in this demonstration Anne doesn’t really care because she makes it right back into the Queen’s bed chamber. 

So interesting nonetheless. On January 1536 the news of the death of Catherine of Argon gets to Henry and Jane and Henry goes out the next day in yellow which at the time is a celebration color. He is having the party of a lifetime because Catherine of Argon is dead. 

Theresa: This is giving Nicole Kidman walking out after getting her divorce. 

Angie: Yes but Henry VIII needs a D bag. So here we go. Anne at this point is pregnant and is both well aware of how precarious her position is with him without a son, especially since Catherine’s death. And she is also aware that he is a D bag flandering husband and has begun an affair with James Heymour at this point. So I think it is really interesting to point out that Catherine’s death may have been a celebratory moment for them but it also left this nagging feeling in Anne’s mind because Catherine was the driving force of legality for Henry to act on. And with her gone there is no one standing in his way of doing whatever he wants to do. Even at this point in their life. So Anne is like oh this might not be like the best move for me if I don’t have a male heir. 

Now nothing after that like within a couple weeks Henry is unhorsed during a tournament and spends the next two hours completely unconscious. The ladies are a bit worried. On January 29th, 1536, whether from the stress of Henry being unconscious or the rage she maybe flies in over him having an affair and suffers a miscarriage. And based upon testimony Jane is the only one who Anne would allow to console her. So for me I’m taking this as she’s the only one allowed in the room. 

Yeah I could see that. Right so again girls, girls. Okay so if you’re any sort of follower of the tutor story here you can sort of see the writing on the wall. 

This is where it all sort of comes to head and the shit hits the proverbial fan as they say. And I am telling you all this about Anne but when in life because Jane and her are so intertwined that I don’t feel like it would make a ton of sense without a bit of the end story. That said not long after this, so it’s January 29th so we’re walking into February. April shows up and an investigation into Anne begins. Here’s the abridged version. Basically Anne’s former ally Thomas Cromwell coincidentally the uncle of Oliver Cromwell. 

Theresa: And yes I see the disdain on your face I know. 

Angie: Allegedly is the mastermind behind her takedown. They do have beef over money, foreign policy, religion that sort of thing. I’m not super sure how much he intended to be the mastermind of her takedown but long story short history has written him as that. Anne wants church funds going to charity and education and she’s like hoping for a stronger French alliance. And Cromwell’s like nah I think we’re going to link up with the Holy Roman Emperor. 

So they’re not exactly on the same page. Like I said there’s a lot of historians that say Cromwell was the absolute villain here. Others say he’s just following Henry’s orders. I think it’s somewhere in between. Like if you are just following orders okay. 

But you have a conscience and you’re making backdoor deals either way. So it’s a little calm a little calm be in my opinion. Anyway things go south fast. A musician named Mark Smeaton gets arrested and possibly after being tortured confesses to being Anne’s lover. And this confession sends everybody into this massive spiral. Courtyards start getting arrested left and right. You have Sir Henry Norris, Sir Francis Weston, Sir William Biratton and Anne’s own brother George are brought up on charges. In George’s case the charges are incest. There is a poet by the name of Thomas Wyatt. He gets arrested as well but he eventually walks free because of his connections to Cromwell. 

So I think it might have just been like a token arrest. Long story short May 2nd, 1536 Anne gets sent to the Tower of London and she’s absolutely losing it. She’s asking her dad where her brother is. The charges that she’s looking at are high treason including adultery with five different men and incest with her brother George and conspiring to kill the king. 

And the whole trial is basically a sham as we all know right. Now this is where Jane comes in. Jane is both a member of Anne’s household and George’s wife because remember George’s Anne’s brother. So she’s sitting in a bit of a pickle. 

We know Thomas Cromwell questions her and honestly given her position I have no idea what I would do. There is this moment where her dad shows up also so she’s stuck between her dad and her husband in a rock and a hard place. Like her dad’s going to be sitting on George’s jury. So there’s problems here no matter how you look at it. 

Theresa: And how would her father be allowed on the jury because you cannot have no opinion in that position. You either hate your son-in-law or you are a team son-in-law. 

Angie: Thank you that’s what I said. I was like bro come on. Now history makes a scapegoat of Jane saying that it’s her who like whispers all of the family secrets into Cromwell’s ear and gives him everything he needs. But we don’t actually know what Jane said. What we do know is that at least two of Anne’s maids accuse her of adultery. But by Tudor’s standards Jane isn’t a maid so likely neither of them were her that are making these accusations. 

And here’s the other thing. Her situation as I just mentioned is way more complicated than history gives her credit for. She’s literally stuck between her father and her husband. And for a Tudor woman this is sort of an impossible position to be in. There’s this potentiality of her dad sitting for Georgia’s trial and also powerful enemies of the Belins just sort of show up at her family’s door to make sure everybody’s on the right side. 

Theresa: This sounds like the mafia showing up to make sure that you tell the right truth on camera. 

Angie: Right. So Jane may have just sort of done the math and sided with dad especially since George already has the king against him. So like it’s possible that she was just like actually you know what he did the thing. I’m going to go hang out with my dad now. Okay. Bye. 

Yeah. It’s possible that that happened. But there’s no evidence to suggest that Jane said anything out of spite or jealousy. And Anne and George being brought down doesn’t do her any favors. So it’s hard to determine what she does. And we also know that she does petition to Henry for George. So is she playing both sides a little bit here? 

Maybe. I don’t know because we don’t actually know what she told Cromwell. But history is real quick to paint her as the villain. Reality is she is just trying to survive in Henry’s court. And we all know that being a woman in this time in this place is not an easy thing. 

Theresa: Being a Belin woman in that court at that time. 

Angie: Right. Now George and the other men except the one with ties to Cromwell and Anne are all executed by May 17th, 1536. Well, Jane, you asked me because I know you’re curious, she goes on to serve the next three queens. 

Theresa: She’d be fair. They were in short succession. 

Angie: There was a revolving door. It was a revolving door. So she serves Jane Seymour, Anne Pleas and Catherine Howard. Jane acts as a vital witness in Henry’s attempt to secure a quick annulment from Anne Pleas. 

She basically gives a testimony that the marriage has not been consummated because remember she’s a lady in the bed chamber. However, it would be the fifth wife, a one Catherine Howard that would absolutely ruin Jane. Catherine Howard was only like 17 when she married Old Hank. And by this point he is 30 years older. That definitely abusive, probably impotent. And he’s got this impotent. 

Theresa: I know that’s how the word is spelled. I agree with you. 

Angie: I said impotent, impotent. But he’s also got this really nice leg, loon that’s oozing and smells gross. Catherine is basically this beautiful young lady that is literally shoved in front of the king by men that are just trying to climb the social ladder. So she’s like, yo, I don’t want to be here. And then like immediately falls in love with the young and handsome Thomas Cole Pepper. I think at this point Jane, who is a little bit older, is looking at this and being like, you know what girl, get you some. And it would seem that Jane helps and possibly encourages this affair, perhaps even keeping watch while they meet up for their little liaisons. The affair comes to light in 1541 and Jane, she claims innocence and total ignorance to the whole thing. But eventually she admits to her past or to her part in this and both girls are put in the Tower of London. She’s condemned to die. But though she wasn’t tortured, so we got to give them that. 

They did not torture her, so that’s nice. But she promptly loses her marbles anyway. She’s overcome with grief and fear and she is pronounced insane. She would think that this would help her because you can’t try an insane person in Tudor, England. 

Theresa: I have a feeling this doesn’t help her. 

Angie: It doesn’t because Henry VIII is sitting on the throne. And he implements a law which would allow for the execution of the insane for high treason because Henry VIII believes that an affair against him is a threat to his person and livelihood. 

By this point he has also lost his marbles. Jane is thus condemned to death by an act of attainder and the execution date was set for February 13, 1542, which is the same day as Queen Catherine’s execution. I didn’t know what an act of attainder is, but the basic gist is it is an act of legislation declaring a person or a group of people guilty of some crime and providing for a punishment often without trial. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, so he basically just sets her punishment and that’s that. 

Like that’s the end of it. So February 13 1542 rolls around. Queen Catherine has just been executed and Jane Boleyn is on the chopping block. Next she is executed and buried alongside Catherine and and George in the church of St. Peter at the tower of London. 

A lot of her story and her villainous look can be attributed to Elizabeth I and her attempt to put her mother in a better light in history, thus zillifying Jane. 

Theresa: But interesting. Okay, I mean, look, I’m right. I get spin. I understand PR. Right. 

Angie: She is she actually deserving of her reputation or was she just a victim of awful men and one woman whose whole goal was to indicate her mother? We may not know, but it sure looks that way. But after all, she is directly related to multiple royal deaths. So history does give her this sort of you must have you must have spun all of these webs and and arranged for all of these deaths. 

Theresa: I mean, at some point, just surviving is sketchy. 

Angie: And in for her case, I absolutely think it was. And when I read that first comment that like made her out to be this murderous and this person that just like totally lived vicariously from others downfalls, I was like, I need to know the rest. And when I got to the end and was like, so what you’re saying is that she was a woman in Tudor England. That’s what you’re saying. 

Yeah. Dang girl, get out while you can. And she just didn’t. So that was my story. That’s the story of Jane Bollin, wife of George, sister in law, and she did outlast all the other villains at court, but not by much. 

Theresa: Yeah, that doesn’t say a whole lot. 

Angie: No, it doesn’t. But Mary, on the other hand, was just fine. She was banished. So it worked. I love that. That’s my story. Yeah. 

Theresa: Well, if you’ve enjoyed this story, if you’re like, holy crap, tons of women and doing things that may or may not have happened in history and unreliable narrators for the win, rate, review, subscribe, send this to your favorite unreliable narrator. And on that note, goodbye. 

Theresa: Bye. Bye.