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Today we have a very special guest. The Unhinged History podcast welcomes Jenny Chan, author and podcaster, exploring the atrocities of the Pacific theater during World War II. In this episode, we explore her in-depth study of Chinese comfort women, Unit 731, and so much more.

Website: https://www.pacificatrocities.org/

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PacificFrontUntold

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast. I am host one. I am Teresa and that host two. 

Angie: No, host two. I’m Angie. Yeah, that’s Angie. Why am I shocked every time? 

Theresa: I don’t know. I didn’t do any lead in. I didn’t talk about how we had just, you know, like two people who randomly do a bunch of things that involve studying the back history of cheese and how the bacteria for their favorite culture was found. 

I didn’t come up with any of that. But today we’ve got a special guest. We are so thrilled and excited. Today we have Jenny Chan. Jenny, what do we need to know about you? What makes you so exciting and special? 

Jenny: Well, I’m not that exciting or special, but I found a nonprofit that documents a million pages of atrocities that happened in World War II. And I started it in 2014 and luckily the nonprofit is still running. 

Angie: And it’s been an incredible journey. And honestly, it’s something that is important to do, I think, because every single time we learn about history, it’s very Western-centric, I would say, and it’s like really popular history that, you know, really left out of how people are affected. And that’s why I’m here to do that kind of work. A million pages. 

Theresa: Yeah. Like how do you even get, how do you gather all of that? Like what was the origin, right? 

Jenny: Like, yeah. So I was born in Hong Kong and I was raised by my grandma because my parents were very busy at their working. And my grandma, every single time I was watching my Japanese anime, she was getting super triggered and I was wondering, like, I always, in the back of my mind, I was like, wow, why is grandma so racist, like, about Japanese and what had happened to her? And so, and so then it’s, and so what’s interesting is that she would not get that kind of reaction if I’m watching like Winnie the Pooh. 

Theresa: Right. And after she died, we found like a box of military and like, you know, World War 

Jenny: II and then I was like, what is the military again? You know, what is the rice rationing coupon? Like, why is it bad? Like basically what happened? And I realized that she probably has suffered through the occupation of Hong Kong by Japanese. And then I had like a very boring job after college and then I was reading more about like World War II in Asia and I was reading about the rape of Nanking. And the rape of Nanking was a very interesting time period because, well, it was very tragic. All humanity was just basically like gone out the window and 300,000 people died within the matter of six weeks by Bayonets and Swords. And, and then I was started reading more into like, you know, World War II in Asia and it’s more like 30 to 42 million who died in Asia, depending on who you ask. And that’s a very big gap. 

That’s like 12 million people. And I realized that there was such a big gap because a lot of the villages were just mass murdered and there were mass graves. And so they didn’t even count. And between like the occupation and the surrender, there were two weeks where documents could be destroyed. 

So even if they were like recorded, there were records, they would have been destroyed anyway. And so that’s, and so with that, I was thinking like, wow, 300,000 people from the rape of the dead and came, it doesn’t sound like that many people, you know, compared to how many people like 30 to 42 million. And, and so I went on a whole journey of like, what happened to the other, you know, 29.7 million people. 

Wow. If you think about it, that like that, then I really went into like a rabbit hole and, and I was trying to find like a nonprofit to work for or volunteer for because I’m just like, wow, this is a big amount of people that have, that have basically perished and no one really talked about it. And I couldn’t find any nonprofit to really work at or volunteer at because there was none. And if you think about it, you know, there are all kinds of Holocaust Center. 

I’m not saying, you know, I’m not discounting that the Holocaust was horrific. But we also, I wanted to also look at it as a more, you know, less Eurocentric way. And so, yeah, that’s what I was doing for the last, um, 10 years. And when I was learning about like comfort women, for example, I took a plane to fly to China to visit them because I knew that there might not be a second chance to go visit them anymore because they’re, they were, age was a factor. And, um, some of the comfort women that I interviewed were pretty like, I’m glad I did. 

But the stories were so heartbreaking that I just basically decided it took me like two years to digest the story before I couldn’t even tell it. Comfort women were like women who were enslaved by the Japanese military and they were like basically in sexual slavery during the war. And I went to Shanxi where they were basically enslaved in 1942 until like some were captured for a few years, some were captured for a few months before they escaped. And it was a pretty horrific time for them. And they never really talked about it until they were like older because it’s such a taboo topic to talk about, especially in Asian countries. And one of the stories really stuck out. 

I mean, I still remember it like this woman, she was telling me how she suffered so much during the war, like she was getting raped like 10 to 15 times a day. And it was her and then her basically she was pregnant afterwards. And she had to bury the baby with her mom. Her mom told her, Hey, let’s just go to a cave and bury the baby so we don’t have to think about it anymore. So then she kind of buried the baby with her memory of what happened. 

But, you know, when she’s close to, you know, dying of old age, then she wants to talk about it. And like that kind of human story is really stuck out to me. And I thought, wow, there must be more of these stories like that. And I started going and I realized that because the United States had occupied Japan, that Japan was a that it was going to be that United States has a bunch of Japanese documents. 

And and I realized that was true because, yeah, because of the American occupation. So that’s how I started my journey of documenting and digitally scanning like close to a million pages of World War Two documents. And what’s also like what really drove me to like start speeding up scanning is that all of these documents are so frail. 

Like if you World War Two documents are mostly from like whatever that they can get for like scrap and whatnot because, you know, of the lack of resources versus like even civil war, you know, still made out of like cotton material. And so it’s, yeah. And so that’s why. 

Yeah, that’s why I was kind of like I was kind of like racing. To digitize all these documents because I know that in a few years it’s not even going to be possible anymore. 

Theresa: And I know you’ve written several books from this perspective. Like what was the first book? What was the narrative arc of that? Like walk me through that whole process. 

Jenny: Yeah, my first book was Andromeda Lotus, which was when I actually went and visited these women in Shanxi. And it was so like emotional for me because, you know, these people were these women were crying about something that happened to them like decades ago. And the arc was basically I tried to explain as best as I could in English, what they were living through. And it’s not just like a language explanation, but also like a cultural and historical context. Explanation because that part of China that I went to is not like a part of China that I’ve ever been to. 

And so it was it was hard to do and I had to do a lot of background research myself into like why they were so poor and like why the famine happened and also why they were facing like Japanese brutality and, you know, and what guerrilla fighters were because those that was like I was just two years into like doing this research and that was all new. It was all new to me. And I mean, I’m Chinese myself. You know, and I was imagining that it is new to me. 

It’s like as foreign to other people. And so, yeah, and then another book that I did was about Unit 731 and there’s also another arc that’s that’s all humanity is basically thrown out with Unit 731 because of human experimentation. And when I was and that was like from research that I’ve done in the National Archives because after the war, America made a deal with Japan. And so then America had like most of the human experimentation reports. And so then I started scanning and looking through and like this human experimentation really got to me because it’s just like, how can you do that to another human being? Like vivisection and like frostbite and whatnot. 

And they were all really horrific stuff. And once I realized that, you know, America was basically making a deal with Japan, I realized that, oh, that’s probably why I’ve never learned about this in school. And like the human experimentation book of Unit 731 is about Maruta’s who were shipped in. 

Theresa: And what are Maruta’s? I’m interrupting just because I want to make sure I follow along. Yeah. 

Jenny: Maruta is like logs. There’s a Japanese word for logs. So in order to dehumanize these victims, they call them logs because. It’s a way to dehumanize them for when they were building Unit 731 as a human experimentation lab. And the scientists when they were asking what other people were asking like, oh, what are you building? 

They were kind of like joking like, oh, a lumber mill and these people who are being shipped in are logs. And that’s also a way to dehumanize these victims. And so they would start the log count from zero to like a thousand. And so each experimentation would be like from zero to a thousand. And then they’ll start from zero again to a thousand in terms of like sample. And that’s why it’s very hard to know what is even the exact count of victims. 

Angie: Because we’re just one through a thousand over and over. Yes. My gosh. That’s insane. 

Theresa: How do you prioritize your own mental health as you’re diving in this? Because I’ve I’ve looked at trying to cover Unit 731 and I didn’t have. I didn’t have that wherewithal on how to get my hands around it just because I you read a couple of things. You’re like, I know I can’t present this in 30 minutes and I don’t want to bog Angie down, you know, like and just make both of us super sad. But how do you how do you prioritize your own health as you’re doing? 

Jenny: Yeah, that’s a great question. So I go outside and touch grass with my dog. I walk my dog. 

Angie: And also, like when I read something that like makes my blood boil, I feel like I need to talk about it and I need to get that information out there. And that’s basically how I have been doing it. And it’s a very passion driven to like, for example, I kind of put off my comfort women book because I was just like, I don’t know what to say this. And but then like, it will be hanging out in the back of my mind. I’m like, I have to do something about this because no one else is talking about it and it just feels wrong that something that happened and it’s not so like. Known, you know, it’s like, I have to say it or not, then it’s just going to be buried and it’s just historical like, you know, hiding historical truth. 

Theresa: When you look at the comfort women, how like you said, towards the end of their lives, they wanted to open up. How did their families interact with this story coming out? Was it something always known or was it something just coming out? 

Jenny: It’s something that they’ve always known. This is actually a good question. It’s something that they’ve always known and they don’t really want to talk about it. But I think Chinese people, they’re not going to like, interrupt their elders when they’re talking. And, you know, we still have this sense of respecting your elders. But recently we reached out to this guy who was working at unit 731 as a teenage. 

It was one of the youth court member and he was only like, maybe 14, 15 when he was working at unit 731, like, like helping to dissect humans and just cleaning up the labs. And he felt so strong. He felt so strongly to talk about this issue that he started like, but his. 

Daughter and his wife told him to stop because they don’t want to be ostracized by other people like in their community by talking about this kind of. You know, undesired historical war crime. And so, yeah, there is that too. Like facing both sides is very hard to get people to like start talking sometimes. 

Theresa: As a society, how did China help the comfort women after the war? Were there official programs? Was there therapy? Or was it just kind of brushed under the rug? 

Jenny: I think it, I think a lot of victims didn’t want to talk about it openly because of taboo. So it’s kind of just everyone is just brushing it under the rug, right? And sometimes it’s culture. 

And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to talk about things like that. And, you know, you want to move on as a country, right? Especially at that time, right after World War II, then there was the Civil War. 

And times were rough. It’s not like what we imagine as like, you know, 2026, you know, in the Western world where, you know, there could be some kind of program to rehabilitate like people, you know, it’s not like that. And people like from the Japanese perspective as well, they didn’t even know what PTSD was. And I recently interviewed a guy whose father fought in the Imperial Japanese Army. I was talking to him and he was telling me that his father became very violent after the war. He’s only known his father in a very violent sense of like being and like what, have nightmares and wake up screaming every night. And he wished that he had known his father before his father went to a war because then, you know, he, and he’s seen like really gentle photos of his father and how sweet his father was. And he wished that he knew his father before, you know, they were sent off to a war and he suspect that other people probably grew up the same way in Japan, like with their father having PTSD from World War II. Wow. 

Angie: So culturally, we are, there are no programs to help alleviate the symptoms of PTSD, especially post World War II, right? Or like, I feel like even in the US, we’re just now starting to try to understand it, let alone do it well. Yeah. 

Jenny: Wow. I agree. Yeah. And also like flags are for fathers. I do bi-weekly podcasts with James now. And James father was one of the guys who rose the flag on Iwo Jima. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so what’s interesting is that in his book, he described his father’s like PTSD symptoms like really well. And also there’s a movie based on it, so if you can watch it in the movie as well. And, but like guys coming back from World War II is they’re not, they don’t know what, they didn’t know what PTSD was. And if you talk about it, it just makes you seem weak. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Angie: I cover a lot of specifically British soldiers and they, they referred to it during World War II as quote, crapping out because they didn’t have another term or another way of explaining that I might be at the end of my mental ability here. It’s, it’s time to take me out, coach, that sort of thing. It’s weird how culturally it changes from place to place, but it’s still the same no matter what. 

Jenny: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, at the end of the day, we’re all human. Like, right? Like, I can’t even imagine killing one person, let alone like mass killing. And if, you know, they were basically doing mass killing on is kill or to be killed. 

And that kind of time period. And that’s why I think like war is just a nasty business. We have no business being in war. 

Like, what are we even fighting for? If you think about it, right? Like, if you look at like pictures of, for example, like World War II, the French fighting Germans, they look like they do. 

Those people could be having a good time at the summer camp instead of fighting a war. Yeah. It’s just like, what a difference, right? But, but it’s just like, it’s just, I guess, it’s, you know, national interest. Yeah. 

Theresa: So, looking at Unit 731, just kind of as a whole, I know, you know, we don’t really touch on it a lot in Western culture, just entirely so much. So I don’t know what happened after the war. Like, I know that it came out. But be honest, like, I haven’t fully dealt in. Can you walk us through that? Yes. 

Jenny: So what had happened after the war was that American investigators landed in Japan and Ishii Shirou, who founded the lab that actually pretended to die and he fixed his own like funeral and whatnot. But then there were other Japanese witnesses who wrote to the American occupiers saying that, hey, Ishii Shirou is still alive and well. And this is where he lives. And so, C. I. A. showed up at his door and sure enough, he was alive and well. 

And with his pet monkey and then C. I. A. investigated about what he has done and they sent like two investigators. And you can see from like the interrogation that, you know, Ishii Shirou was kind of flying me like, oh, you can’t do that. 

You can’t do that. And he had also kept like a really good list of like his reports and also his research and the investigators then got other people involved. And eventually they also sent for detrics like top scientists to Japan to read over what what was his research about. And Norbert Fowle, who was one of the investigators, then called and make the call to give them immunity, eventually, and promised immunity. Like, and I think it was like in 1947. And after the scientists, basic from Forde, he basically said like, hey, you know, this is not something that we could we could replicate in a civilized society and good thing there’s already a research done here. And so the Americans bought it for a couple million dollars. Yeah. And where the research? Yeah, the research, all the research report and the lab results and whatnot. Who did they buy it from? 

Theresa: Did he did he profit from this? Yeah. 

Jenny: Wow. And so then. And so they made a deal. And so then a lot of the top scientists end up like escaping trial from during like we always hear about Nuremberg trial and Oswidge and whatnot because it was then made public. And we all know about like Joseph Mengele, but we don’t know about unit 73 one just for this reason, because America bought this research results and used it for 40 trick. And if you look at like, for example, it was called conspiracy theorists for saying this for pointing this out, like the bombs that were not the, the, about a bacteriological bomb that was dropped in North Korea looks very similar to the one that unit 73 one developed. And we have all of that also in our digital archive from some reports from for the trick that I know looks exactly like, you know, unit 73 one reports. That’s just that is in English. And you can see some for the trick reports from like the 1950s when they say that, oh, this lab was generate this lab result was generated in Manchuria. That’s when you know that there are like unit 73 one lab testing results. Oh my gosh. It like as soon as that. 

Angie: Go ahead. No, I was going to say to me that implies that a lot of that testing or at least some of that testing carried out after the fact as well. Correct. 

Theresa: And to hear the phrase we couldn’t replicate this in a in a in a peaceful society. That is that is really messed up. 

Jenny: And what’s crazy to me is that like how the American public was left out, right? Like people’s taxpayers, taxpayers money were basically used to fund this. And it’s not like they just made this decision in like some lower tier people. It was like top scientists. It was like investigators. 

It was like people who actually like try to figure out what was happening. And yeah, it’s it’s incredible. And so it’s like. And decades later, finally, people figure it out and it’s just like, but what is also being hidden from us that we don’t know? Like, why don’t they just announce it? Like what would have happened if people just announced like, hey, you know, we’re going to buy these lab. And we’re going to sell it now from 731. I know there were evil guys, but we’re trying to find other evil guys now. 

Theresa: I’m just surprised they didn’t just confiscate them. Like, I mean, the U.S. is typically a bully in these situations. I’m really surprised we didn’t just, you know, take their lunch and walk away. 

Angie: You know, we’re not known for our gentle handling. It comes to things like that. So it is a little bit shocking that we would even take a more gentlemanly approach and offer to purchase them. 

Jenny: Well, a couple of million dollars for what they were doing for like thousands of lives, I guess is a hell of a deal. Right. And this is like, you know, they were doing this human experimentation since like 1930s. So like at that gate of human experimentation, I guess it’s a it’s a deal. 

Theresa: Yeah, it’s not the deal we want to make though. Like truly a guy like that deserves to be sitting next to all the rest of our criminals in Nuremberg. 

Jenny: Yeah, but he actually died from like lung cancer. And recently I watched like an interview of his daughter and his daughter was saying how that if he was born like later, right, then the he would not have been assigned to this. 

He could have been a politician just because of how well he could talk. And like what inspired his starting of unit 731 was also sickening. He noticed that the West was writing rules about germs and like on Geneva Convention. 

And so he thought that if they’re writing rules, that means that this must be a very powerful thing. And so he decided to start a germ warfare kind of factory laboratory just to harness germs to make Japan a world power. And at the same time, the emperor was also a hobbyist in terms of biology. So he would have his little vials and pretend that he’s doing his science experimentation. So Isshishiro knew that the emperor was interested in science. And he also knew that during Russo-Japanese War, the reason why Japan was falling was because of unclean water. 

Like that was one of the pain points of the Russo-Japanese War. And so he decided that he’s going to meet with the emperor and he’s going to show the emperor this like filter that he’s made. And he peed inside the filter and drank his own like filter pee in front of the emperor. 

So that, yeah. And so he drank his filter pee and then the emperor was so impressed that he gave him funding right away. And when he started this lab, he started it in Japan, but he knew that he was going to get into trouble in Japan, especially in Tokyo. So if he knew that he was going to get into trouble, what does he do when Japan conquered Manchuria? He decided to move his lab into Manchuria. 

He took a road trip during the summer with his friends and visited Manchuria and thought, wow, this is a remote. So no one’s ever going to find out about this. And I’m going to establish my laboratory here. So he took over like a source of factory efforts. But the prisoners got out and he thought, well, if the prisoners got out now, I need to like not let people know. 

So instead of like not doing it, right? He decided to move to a larger scale because he was already having some like early promising results in terms of like human experimentation. And so he took over this whole village and then built like 150 buildings like dormitory, movie theater, like all these labs, all these like there was even like an area where he tied prisoners to stakes and like test like bacteriological bombs on them. And yeah, so he even assigned his brother as a prison guard because he wasn’t he didn’t trust anyone else on guarding his secret. 

Theresa: Wow. And how long did this go on? He said 10 years. 

Jenny: At least. So he first started it in like late 1920s in Japan. And there’s been recent articles where like some Japanese developer were trying to develop somewhere in Japan. I think it was like Shimbuya and they discovered a bunch of skeletons. So just like early thing was in Japan itself. And then later it was moved to Manchuria. So like that’s 1932. So like at least, you know, 13, 15 years. 

Angie: And where is he getting all of his victims? Where where are the test subjects coming from? 

Jenny: Yeah. So so since Japan occupied Manchuria, whoever was going to be like anti Japanese would be rounded up and tested on like and he had the Quantum Army doing that for him. Okay. And they will get called a special shipment from a route. Oh. Yeah. 

Terming. That’s that’s what it was called. And I mean, in the beginning, when I was researching about this, I’m like, this is a big scale of thing that he was operating. And I have always wondered how he got money for it. As soon as I found like the thing, the memo that the emperor signed off on, I’m like, okay, I got it. 

I understood how he got money. So it was like a state sponsored thing. It’s not like one broke individual just went out there and like started human experimenting on like thing. It was like a massive scale, like systematic way of getting victims and like testing. And at one point, like in Japan, like you can see a lot of scientific paper writing about like, oh, we had test subject of Manchurian monkeys. 

And when you see it’s like Manchurian monkeys, then you know, it’s like a human that was actually used. It was like multiple humans that were used for this like test topic of how to advance science. And like, I’ve always thought of science as like a very good thing of like advancement and whatnot. 

And so knowing about UNIS731 gets me to the point where I’m just like, you know, what is science without humanities? Like, obviously this guy saw a point to explore in the Geneva Convention, right? Like, and Geneva Convention is not really protecting us. I think nowadays, as we can see recent events, like international law is kind of a joke. Yeah. 

Theresa: Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, it’s you have to not only have the law, but then be willing to stand up against the aggressor. And if they’ve got a massive army because they’re a world superpower, sorry about your luck, we’re just going to shake our fist at you. 

Jenny: Yeah, it’s almost like an honorary system, right? Like, so how who is enforcing what laws? Like, obviously there was Geneva Convention that this guy decided to violate. So, yeah, it’s always been a very interesting question that I’m like thinking about at the back of my mind, like who’s enforcing laws in this world? 

Theresa: You know, and that’s going to be something that sticks with me. Just because, you know, we did have the Nuremberg and now we are seeing like, to know that he was paid. 

Like, I’m going to be just spending on that for the longest time. Was there any war crimes? Was anybody held? Like, was there any scapegoats for unit 3 or 731? Or was it all just… Were there any survivors? No. 

Angie: Oh, shoot. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, no scapegoats then either because that was my thought as soon as you said scapegoats is you could figure out how to blame the survivor. 

Jenny: Right. And the guy who like made anthrax powder eventually became like a executive at a at Green Cross, which was a Japanese pharmaceutical company learning from, I mean, from test results that he’s had in working at unit 731 because unit 731 was like a very prestigious place for scientists to work on. And what’s also even more interesting is that he was then… In 1932, he actually tried to steal a strand of virtual yellow fever from the Rockefeller Institute. So, the OSS had known about this guy since like the 1930s and because the scientists who were working at Rockefeller Institute wrote to OSS and then they knew about it and then they decided to not do anything or like not let the public know. And so, they probably knew about it for like a decade before, you know, deciding to go over their McAdil. 

Theresa: Wow. I keep hoping that we’re going to find a crack and we’re going to find a little bit of light, but it just keeps getting darker and darker and darker. 

Jenny: Sorry. No, no, no, you’re fine. Like, I mean, this is something I typically bring Angie, these complete buzz kills of stories. And now it’s being done to me. You know, how do you like it, Teresa? It’s uncomfortable. 

There is a discomfort in my chest that I’m going to be wrestling with. Wow. So, there’s a little bit of a paradox because you had said Isshiro when he, his daughter had said that he could have grown up to be a politician, you know, had he been born in a different time. But then you said before the war, there’s evidence that he was doing these experiments in Tokyo before moving to Manchuria. How do you reconcile those two phrases or those two thoughts that he could have been a politician, but he was doing these awful experiments before having access? 

Jenny: Before, no, he had access. He already had Emperor money in Tokyo. 

Theresa: Oh, okay. So, it was the Emperor sign off and then starting his experiments in Tokyo that kind of kick started this whole process. Right. 

Jenny: And if he was a politician, you know, he would have gotten ways to make money, you know, nowadays politicians just make money anyway. So, he could have easily tricked the whole population and he was also extremely, extremely charming in the way that like other scientists and other doctors just want to be just like him. And for example, right, there was in the Yokohama trial, which is for class being, class C war criminals, they charged this doctor, I forgot his name, Takubra, who was actually working at a POW camp. And at this POW camp, he started doing human experimentation on like POWs. And so, he would like shoot soy milk into these people’s veins and then like see if that’s like a more efficient way to digest protein, which is stupid because you don’t do that. 

You have to have, you know, digestion and then there’s amino acid and then becomes protein. And like during the trial, they asked him like, oh, why did you do that? And he was like, oh, I really looked up to Ishi Shiro because I think that what he did, and because he was a top scientist with like getting a handsome amount of money from the emperor, that I think really affected how other people viewed him. And that’s why I think his daughter said that he could have been a politician because he was so charming and he was so well respected by like the scientific community, even though that what he was doing was wrong, it’s morally wrong, like a doctor’s wear an oath to not hurt other people. And hurting people was what he was doing every day, like massive amount of people. So, yeah. 

Theresa: Is there any correspondence of his that shows how he reconciled that? Like I know serial killers, they all have their own moral codes and a reason that they did it, even if it’s not logical to me. Like do we get an like a feeling from him? 

Jenny: Yeah, from him is all about scientific experiments and advancement. It doesn’t matter how he was going to achieve it, it’s all about scientific advancement and making sure that Japan becomes a world power. 

Angie: Do any beneficial, this is going to sound terrible, but do any beneficial advancements come out of this? 

Jenny: Yeah, that’s how we figured out how to treat frostbite, for example. He had like victims outside in cold Manchuria because like Manchuria is super icy. And he would leave them, his scientist, Yasuda would leave them outside and then see how long it takes for the for the limbs to freeze. And then he would chop off the limbs to see how the cold is like reacting to the limbs. And that’s how they figured out how to treat frostbite, it’s by like 100 degrees of water. 

And that’s from testing in Unit 731. There was also another example where they were, I think they were trying to like replace people’s blood with like horse blood, but of course it fails spectacularly. And then there was also some research of like making anthrax and glanders. There were also research on like how much your body can take G forces for fighter airplanes so that they can produce airplanes. There were also like test subjects who he forced like a pregnant, their scientists forced a pregnant woman to have sex with another prisoner to make sure to make to figure out if civil us could be passed on to the baby. So there were like a certain aspect of this study that I think is still used. But yeah, so it’s just like how you know, like what the scientists in Fort Dietrich say you can’t do that in like a peaceful society. So and so what do you what do you do? You do it when it’s like an occupied country to people who can’t help themselves really. Yeah. Wow. That’s a lot. Yeah. 

Theresa: Wow. Well, what’s next for you? Like are you like I know you’re still in charge of the nonprofit and you’re still going strong there. What is the next project you’re working on? 

Jenny: We want to work more on like YouTube videos and you know, more multimedia. And right now we’re uncovering a lot of the untold really Yokohama trials, which are also fascinating on itself. It’s crazy. It’s crazy that you kill. That’s like mass killing and it’s still called class B, class C war criminals. 

Like that’s insane to me. I feel like even if you kill one person, you should just immediately be sent to jail. But that’s not what happens in the war. 

And while reading these like Yokohama trials, it really uncover like this really ugly part of humanity for me because like in 1945, this is going to be a long answer. I hope you’re okay with that. No, please. We’ve got time. Okay. 

Great. In 1945, when like B-29 from America were attacking Japan, some pilots got, the whole bomber crew got captured. And then they were pushed to like Hushu Imperial University. And then the airmen were basically used for human experimentation. And in front of a college lecture, and like they were removing their lungs to see how long they could live. 

They were also trying to like see if seawater can like replace saline. And it’s like, and these are like class B, class C war criminals. And it’s really interesting that like nurses and doctors were tried for Yokohama trials. And just like reading the testimonies too from like these nurses, like some of these nurses didn’t want to do it at all. They were like, oh, this is not what we sign up to do. And like, and you can also see that like pilot, these pilots who were being pushed into like Hushu Imperial University, they thought they were going to be saved. They thought that like, okay, maybe I’m being pushed to a hospital and like I’m going to be saved being human experimented on. And so I just can’t, when I was reading that, I can’t imagine like, you know, you’re, I guess they’re soldiers and they sign up for it, but can’t believe that they were being pushed to a hospital. 

And instead of being saved, they were being used as like lecture test subjects. And so that makes me think that, you know, it’s not just unit 731. And recently we reached out to this guy who was working at unit 1630. His father was working at unit 1633. 

And which was like another Nanjing biological lab. And he was saying that he had no idea what his father did. But then like whenever people look up 1633, they will go to him because he was like the only person who talked about it in the press. And he said that more research needs to be done about what was all happening in like this kind of atmosphere of human experimentation. 

Theresa: Wow. I’m quiet only because I’m just trying to put my whole brain around it. It’s just so big of a subject. Yeah. 

Angie: So are these trials just because I don’t know, so I’m genuinely curious, are these trials also taking place around the same time as Nuremberg trials or? 

Jenny: This was later. Yokohama trial was definitely later. Okay. And but these trials are so, so the Soviets also had a trial close to when Nuremberg was going on. I can never pronounce Russian words. So it’s like a rural trial and they like published it about like what unit 731 was doing. And at the time, like the press was accusing Russians of telling fake news. 

And this is like communist propaganda and whatnot. But what happened is that the trial was actually more real than like, you know, Tokyo trial because Tokyo trial, no one, no scientist was actually pushed to get justice. Eventually all of the scientists that Russia, Soviet Union tried did get like freedom by like the 1950s. 

But it’s just like, at least they did something. And how we can further know that this is a real thing is that in 1946, the Soviet Union had like a biological lab leak because they were trying to test out some of the results from unit 731, but I guess they just didn’t do it right. So and then it becomes like another question in my mind that like, okay, so the United States bought, you know, these lab results and whatnot. And what could have happened if the Soviet Union got it? You know, in this story, there’s no good guy. Yeah. 

Theresa: Now, would unit 731 at least, would that still be a part of Operation Paperclip? Or was that very different? 

Jenny: No, it’s very different. I call it like Eastern Paperclip because we all know about Paperclip that got us to Space Prograp. But this is like a separate thing that the US was also doing that makes me wonder like how scared were people during the Cold War that they were able to like make deals with the doubles? 

Theresa: Yeah, honestly, because some of the stuff that we barely know where we hear the conspiracy theorists and then a year or two later get a FOIL request answered. Now he figured out it’s just like, oh my God, the people in the tinfoil hats were right. 

Angie: Hey, no one that happens. 

Jenny: I know, I hate it too. It’s like, you know, honestly, all these Epstein files, I’m like, damn, I can’t believe all these people in these tinfoil hats were like, we’re onto something. 

Theresa: Yeah, that there really was a whole, yeah. 

Jenny: And why is it that like the powerful people are into such fake stuff in this world? 

Theresa: You know, you say that and the entire time you were talking, I kept thinking about the Stanford Prison experiments, you know, where it’s the person in power just suddenly morphs that they just completely change from who they are to really enact these horrific things. And I’m almost wondering if it’s just an issue of power. 

Angie: I think it is. I think about that a lot in a lot of the stories we talk about, like what gave them the idea that could try this, let alone get away with it, right? And I think it is that position of power. Like who’s going to tell me no? Yeah, that’s my theory anyway. There’s my tinfoil hat thought. 

Theresa: Not that we should enact the Stanford Prison experiment just because that also is not ethical. 

Jenny: Yeah, this also was very disgusting. Let’s don’t do it. Yeah. And also, like, you know, why do it when they have to keep it a secret later? Right. Like why do all these nasty things when later you know that you’re going to be dealing with consequences or like keeping this nasty secret for so long? 

Angie: Yeah. I think they think there will be no consequences for their actions. Right. That’s my thought. 

Jenny: Yeah, in 1944, like America was still losing the war. And so I think like a lot of these Japanese scientists could not believe it when the day, when they were actually surrendering and the day that they actually had to like take down unit 731 and burn it and burn all the documents and detonate the whole building, they never saw this day coming. Yeah. It’s a sobering thought. Wow. 

Theresa: Okay. Trying to think of a way to wrap up. Do you have anything else you want to cover? First off, questions I didn’t ask that you wished I would have. 

Jenny: Yeah, actually, I want to talk about a very funny story. It’s not that funny, but it’s pretty interesting at least. So my co-hosts are like twice a month now, Pacific Front untold James Bradley. His second book was on the flyboys and it’s about how, you know, eight of these airmen were captured at GIGI GIMA and one of them escaped and that person so happened to be George Bush, who later became president. And some guy reached out to him and said that I was the witness at this like horrific war crime trial. 

And it was a secret war crime trial. And he didn’t believe, and that person called like Iris Chang, who wrote The Rape of Nanking. And I was chained and believe him and said, basically told James Bradley, like this guy’s too crazy for me. I don’t want to deal with him. You deal with him. 

You call him. And James Bradley went to this guy’s living room and did an interview. And so it’s just like, you know, he so happened to capture the story right before like this guy died of old age. And it’s just like, that’s I’ve been thinking about this a lot in the back of my mind, like how many stories were just, it just kind of faded away due to like time, you know, and that’s always been like in the back of my mind. 

And also like there, and then that flyboys became like New York Times bestselling book. And so like a lot of stories, maybe people are just thinking like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t even tell it’s just too crazy or like, oh, it’s not worth it of like telling it. But then, you know, it happens to be a good story. So I think, you know, a lot of your listeners should or you guys, you know, you stumble across something, say something. 

Theresa: Well, I mean, you see that like my grandfather’s best friend and his wife grew up in Latvia during World War Two. The husband had a very dramatic sounding last name. So he had a very different war experience than his wife. His wife got sent to a concentration camp and she was the only one to make it out. And she doesn’t have the tattoo on her forearm because she learned that they were going to give her group the tattoos. 

And she and a couple other girls climbed underneath the building and laid there without moving for three days. Just to avoid the tattoo. And when I was just like, why don’t you tell your grandkids this? Why don’t you tell others this? Anybody wants to hear? And I’m like, I don’t think that’s true. 

Angie: 100%. The amount of times I have said to my husband, I wish I could have had the opportunity to listen to their story, to just sit at their feet and hear their story. But I lost both of my grandfathers before I was born. To know that they were both in World War Two and I missed them. They both fought in the Pacific and I missed it. Like, and my family won’t tell their stories. It’s devastating for me. Because that’s history you will never know. 

Jenny: Yeah. And for your listeners who are interested in our work, our website is pacificatrocities.org. And our YouTube is Pacific Front Untold. 

Theresa: And I will link all of those in the show notes so that it’s easy to just click on through. Thank you. My absolute pleasure. Now, Jenny, is there any way, like, let’s say we have a listener who goes, oh my gosh, my great uncle has a killer story that you need to hear. Is there a spot on the website they can get in contact with you? 

Yes, there’s a contact form. Heck yes. So you’ve heard it here. If you’ve got a story that would be incredible for Jenny to, you know, listen to, dive in, investigate, let her know. All right, anything else before we wrap up? No, that’s it. 

Thank you so much for having me. This honestly, like, this feels like something we could have easily done and should have done years, like years ago. Eight years ago. 

We’re now three years in. Thanks for being our first. Yeah, thank you. 

And thank you for being so incredible and being so knowledgeable. It was nice to come in with just a loose understanding of your background and just be prepared for stories. This was very rewarding. 

Jenny: Awesome. And I hope your needlework is going well. 

Theresa: Yeah, I mean, I’ll let you know when it’s done. I’ve probably got another week, but we’ll see. So to everyone else listening at home, see you next week. Bye. Bye.