Listen to the episode here.

Theresa celebrates a full-circle moment as she shares how a Frenchman, Jules Brunet, attempted to stop the fall of the Shogunate in Japan. Podcast favorite character, arms-dealing Matthew Perry, makes a cameo as Theresa connects many dots to previous episodes.

Angie reminds us all to call our moms this Sunday as she regales us with the story of Atossa, Queen Mother of Persia. This woman made more kings than Catherine de’ Medici, and that’s saying something. As the daughter of Cyrus the Great, she marries Darius the Great and gives birth to Xerxes.

This episode pairs well with:
The Battle of Aizu
The First Japanese Man in The USA – John Mung
Artemisia I of Halicarnassus

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Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast. The podcast where two absolute compulsive nutjobs are going to just read history memes and the backstories behind it and compulsively go, but wait a minute, what? That article conflicts with this source. I’ve got to read five more sources. I’m Teresa, and that is Angie. I’m host two. I switched it up. I said I didn’t say host two. 

Angie: Yeah, I was literally lip syncing and then you just changed the album on me. 

Theresa: I know. I’m good for that. Your hair looks fantastic today. 

Angie: Thank you. I know you all can’t see it, but she’d be looking fly. 

Theresa: I mean, I looked in the Zoom meeting before you signed in and my honest expression was, is that me? Is that how I am showing up? Yeah. I, hot damn, I’ll take it. 

Angie: You’re giving hot gamer growth. I’m being real honest, like run with it. 

Theresa: Honestly, yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to pretend that I’ve got my stuff together and that I didn’t just have my first guy know visit in a decade, even though it’s supposed to be annual. 

Angie: We literally have had this conversation, babe. It happens. You’re supposed to do it all the time. 

Theresa: Yeah. And I’m like, huh. Yeah, I enough stuff going sideways. I might as well get all the doctor visits going. Dude. But you came to listen to a history podcast and I don’t know if you know this. I’m going first. So, oh, are you? Yeah. 

It is, it is my time to shine hot dog, which is good because I put my person in the spreadsheet and I saw you in the spreadsheet. I was like, hi, don’t look. 

Angie: Good luck. I’m not, I’m not looking. I’m out. Okay. I will tell you that never mind. Yeah. 

Theresa: Would you, would you please never mind? I’m out. Okay. Just regard me, please. I’m going to tell you the story of Jules Brunet. What is this? 

Angie: This, I need to go check my spreadsheet. I doubt it. I really doubt it. This story, please, while I check my spreadsheet, now that you’re saying that. Okay, fine. I guess I will maintain. 

Theresa: Actually, I’m going to kill time. Well, you, you resources while I check my spreadsheet. 

Theresa: This story was suggested on TikTok by a user named Sin City Joe. 

Angie: And I kind of went, okay, damn it. They are on my list. Carry on. Sweet. 

Theresa: My sources, history skills.com, the incredible story of Jules Brunet, the French military leader who fought with the samurai. There is an all this interesting article, Jules Brunet, the real last samurai who resigned from the French military to fight for the Shogunate by Marco Marguena. Mark, not close. That would have been a cool name, but his last name is Margettnaf. Okay. 

Angie: I mean, that’s still a cool last name. 

Theresa: Yes, I just gave him an apostrophe. I over the hills, if you 

Angie: were, you know, it’s really funny is I had him, not that this matters at all, but I had them down for my story in two weeks. Did you do any research? 

Theresa: No, because this is one of the stories I’m like, and that connects and then that connects and that connects. 

Angie: So this story was meant for you based on all the other stories. 

Theresa: Yeah. Based on all the previous stories I’ve told, like this is going to be my, okay, I’m going to link to this in the show notes. I’m going to link to this story in the show notes. 

And this is what I’m linking to this story in the show notes. I love it. Let’s go. 

Okay. On January 2nd, 1838, baby boy Jules Brunet is born in the fortified town of Belfort. This is where the military had a heavy impact in day to day life. Now, he is the son of a veterinarian in the French army, which feels like a weird statement until you realize that the army had horses. 

Angie: Yes, you say they have horses and dogs. So having a vet makes sense. 

Theresa: I mean, look, Paul, you’re kind of a kind of a dog. You should see the vet. That looks infected. 

Angie: Okay, if I said that, we’re just talking the other day about how, like, in a real emergency situation, you could go to the vet since they have to deal with so much physiology anyway, like a human wouldn’t be weird. 

Theresa: They’re able to work on every animal but humans. 

Angie: You know what? Some of the doctors I met, I trust a vet more. 

Theresa: Honestly. Now, this in mind, he grew up with some very close firsthand exposure to military institutions, technical skills, and national service. Our boy was on the front lines for all of this. And apparently, he was a big brain because he displayed early strengths and mathematics, sketching, and scientific reasoning. 

Okay. Now, his late teens, he had already secured admission to the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris. This is a highly competitive institution that trained engineers, scientists, and military officers for state service. I love this. So this is voting well, like you are seeing the foreshadowing. His instructors described him as methodical and precise in technical matters and tireless in his efforts. Okay. None of my instructors would describe me like that. Just for the record. 

They might say great things, but they would not say that. Now, Pleasure to have in class. I had, okay, so side story. I had one professor who taught, I went to a religious undergrad. He taught theology and he taught it in a hot classroom right after lunch in a non-air conditioned room. 

And his voice drolled. Okay. There you go. Because I was heavily engaged in every sort of, like lecture he had, but 30 minutes in, my head was on the desk and I was asleep. 

Oh, yeah. I couldn’t stay conscious. I would sit in the very front row to try to think that maybe that could shame me to do it. No. I had the person next to me, like I championed her to staff me in the ribs with her pencil when she saw me nodding off. 

Torture couldn’t keep me awake. So I skate through his class. I get to the end of my college career and I get the report saying you need one more set of credits because the class you took from him didn’t quite meet the requirements you needed. You need to take the other class from him. 

Angie: And he’s looking for the morning and in the AC 

Theresa: because, well, it was like, you’re going to either need him to like sign a substitution form or you’re going to need to take an extra semester. And I didn’t want to take an extra semester. So I walk in his office and I’m like, hey, Professor Camp, here’s the thing. 

I took the wrong class, the one I couldn’t stay conscious for. You remember. We had that. Yeah. Yeah. 

Okay. And see, I can’t graduate because I took column A when I should have taken column B. So my choices are you sign my substitution form or we repeat this process next semester. He snatched the form from my hand and signed it. That’s the kind of student I was. 

Angie: I’m not even a little bit shocked. 

Theresa: I loved his class though. And that’s why I was like, body, you are letting me down. Dude, those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyhow, back to our man, Jules Bernay. He 1862, he’s the French military leadership. 

They sent him to Mexico as part of Emperor Napoleon the 3rd expeditionary force where he was supposed to or where he supported artillery operations during the campaign to install Archduke, Max million of Austria as Emperor of Mexico. 

Angie: I love all of those words because I’m just a man like, this is not new information for me and it always makes me laugh. Like I mean, Emperor of Mexico, make me laugh. 

Theresa: I had to stop and be like, wait a minute, was he there for the pastry war? Like I was beginning to think like this guy was in everything. No, pastry war was in 38. So he’s a couple decades too late. Yeah. Okay. But I wanted it to happen. 

Angie: I mean, someone was there. Somebody saw it. So it’s good. 

Theresa: Yeah. During the Mexican campaign, he earned the Legion to honor after he produced reliable artillery positions under pressure and conductive. Nope, conducted. He was not sharing the energy. Effective fire missions that supported French advances. 

Okay. So then he’s got to rack up some an impressive resume before we get to Japan. At the siege of Puebla in 1863, he applied standard techniques with impressive accuracy under fire. So we already see he’s got a steady hand and he started his life with those reasoning skills. Now by the mid 1860s, he’s returned to France resume work at the Ministry of War. And here’s where something cool happens. 

Angie: The Ministry of War sounds like such a cool place. Like, I know this dump of my brain immediately is like, yo, you know what they have there? And I’m automatically boom. Yes. And also muggles. 

Theresa: So it’s at this time, the Japanese Tokugawa Shogunate has formally requested French assistance to modernize its army. And in response, the French government dispatched a small team of military instructors known as the mission. Me, they’re from say, oh, Japan. Okay, I probably said none of those words, right? But boy, I tried. You sure did. 

I’m going to give it to you. Now you remember how last episode I talked about John Mung and how Japan was heavily isolationist. And then we had our friend arms dealing Matthew Perry, who is a recurring figure in this podcast that we never thought it would be. 

Angie: Okay, can I just total tangent here? But can I just say my favorite thing about this podcast is we have things like arm dealer Matthew Perry, who in like the grand scheme of the world is such a niche weird character, but we’re like, that guy’s there. That guy. That guy. 

Theresa: Again. 

Theresa: So he shows up and he wants to fill America’s old weapons. He wants to off, you know, offload. And then we have John Mug who translates for him. Right? Well, now this is the first time that Japan has had to open itself up to the outside world. And the Japanese signed a treaty with the US the following year. 

It’s called the Kanagawa tree. And this allowed American vessels to dock in two Japanese harbors. America also established a console in Shimoda. I don’t know why we needed a console there, but here we are. But we’ve got one. Now this event shakes Japan to its absolute core. The nation ends up splitting, right? Because part of it wants to modernize the other half wants to remain traditional. 

Angie: Can’t you be modern and traditional? 

Theresa: You know, they didn’t realize they could have their cake and eat it too. Okay. Because this conflict kicks off the Boschian war. They would go from 68 to 69. It’s also known as the Japanese Revolution. Now, okay. In one corner, we have Japan’s major emperor. Now he’s backed this, he’s backed by these powerful figures that won a Westernized Japan, and they want to revive his power. 

So he’s team get my power. On the other corner, we have the Tokugawa shogunate. And he’s got this continuation of military dictatorship and it’s comprised of the elite Japanese warriors, the samurai. And they’ve ruled Japan since 1192. 

Yeah, okay. So they’ve got some legacy behind them. Now, the Tokugawa shogunate is a man named Yoshinobu and he agreed to return power to the emperor. And he’s believing there’s going to be a peaceful transition. This turns violent when the emperor was convinced to issue a decree that dissolved the Tokugawa house instead. 

Angie: That feels like perhaps shots fired. 

Theresa: Yes, very much so. Okay. So now back to the story, right? Our man, Brunet, is selected as one of the key artillery experts to the mission. Alongside, he’s got some other people like a man who’s a cavalry specialist named Captain Andrei Kazenovu and interpreter Charles Marlin. 

Angie: Can you isolate that? Does that one sound good for me and send it to me? 

Theresa: I mean, I might try, but it’s, I think if anything, it’s just going to, upload the video and do the eye roll that I had to do to make my tongue do the thing. Because it was beautiful to watch. 

Well, there we go. When Brunet arrives in Yokohama, it is 1867 and he joins the French mission under Captain Charles. I didn’t look up any of the French words because I thought truly in Japan and my brain just glossed over the need. 

Shano and Ein, that’s not it. But anyhow, they begin training the Shogunate troops. Okay. Now, he travels to Shizuoka. I have been to Shizuoka. So this was like, Shizuoka. Now, I had noodles there. Delicious. We’ll do it again. 

Angie: I was just going to say, is there a cute little noodle shop? 

Theresa: Like, yeah. Yeah, there’s a cute little noodle shop in nearly every town. Shizuoka itself is fairly in the countryside. Okay. You don’t necessarily go there. It doesn’t have Disneyland. You’re not going to the beach. 

But it is there. Yeah. Now, in Shizuoka, he’s teaching advanced techniques in artillery positioning, fortification and logistics. His breadth and fire. Now, it is bizarre to me to realize that Napoleon III was reached out to by the Tokugawa Shogunate. And that that’s why this man is here. Like, that is mind blowing to me to see these worlds cross. Yeah. 

Angie: And that Matthew Perry is somewhere involved. 

Theresa: You know, honestly, it is the 1860s. Matthew Perry is going to Matthew Perry. So our man, Jules Brunet, he translates the European tactical manuals that he’s basically written into what they’re using. And he trains everybody. And this earns him a ton of praise from the Japanese officers because they are elite warriors. They see he is an elite warrior with a different skill set. And they’re like, Oh, yes, please. 

Yeah. Now, King respects King, you know, exactly. Now, at this stage, his students are all samurai from birth. They have been born into this class and raised up to you will fight because your father fought and your father before him fought. So right. 

Yeah. Now, they are also unfamiliar with the modern battlefield techniques. Like, they don’t have the guns. They don’t know. 

And so this is brand new to them. They’re used to short ways weapons. And so now it’s like, no, no, you don’t have to have as much skill to mow down 100 of these people. Right. 

This makes sense. So he’s maintaining this incredibly high standard of discipline. He’s delivering clear instruction in a foreign language and gaining the trust of both the rank and file soldiers and the senior Tokokawa commanders. 

And that’s really cool. Everybody loves this man. I love this for him. Now, he works specifically with a dude named Otori Kisuke. And this is a commander of the elite. Then she ties that they’re a unit of they’re a key figure in the Shogunate’s effort to resist the Imperial March. Okay, like think of them as kind of seal team six. 

All right, I’m here for it. Now, he’s Brunei is inspecting the fortifications. He’s supervising the field exercises, and he’s building all of these relationships on mutual respect and shared goals. 

I like it. So this is like a bond form in love, right, and understanding and knowledge, like my little warrior heart stoked. Now, he kind of gets an understanding of this whole political tension that’s building. He can see it happening. And as he’s doing all of this, he’s trying to remain a military professional and stay focused on his duties. 

As you do, because he doesn’t have a dog in the site. Now, it’s early in 1868. And this is when the imperial loyalists declared the restoration of Emperor Meiji. Okay. Now, you have to remember that October 8 of 1868, we have the Battle of Aizu, which I covered in episode 67, Bloods of Battle. Okay. 

Okay. Now, what kicks things off is there’s a fight that breaks out near Kyoto. And the Shogun’s army, they deliver a stern letter to the emperor to reverse his decision that dissolves the Shogunate house. And the law, okay. So because they’re like, look, you can’t destroy the Shogunate house. 

Undermine the longstanding elite status that these, this class of people has, and you can’t take away their titles and lands. And we’ve been here for a minute. Yeah. 

1192. Like, you know, yeah. However, apparently that letter didn’t fly because they’re not allowed to pass. And the troops of the Satzuma and Choshu feudal lords who are behind the emperor’s decree are ordered to fire on the the Tlgogawa Shogunate’s troops. Oh, right. Okay. 

So they read their letter and said to not pass, go, do not collect $200. Right. Okay. 

Now, here’s the incredible part, right? Because I had to go back and basically relook at all the research for the Battle of Aizu, because there are sources that talk about how the Tlgogawa Shogunate, they wanted to remain traditional. They wanted to stick to their spears and pikes and whatever. 

And I’m like, no, no. Because the truth is arms dealing Matti Perry came through with the old crap and took out a Shogunate was like weapons. We like pointy kill things. 

Which end? We can kill people from further away. And so sounds great. They take the old stuff. Now, not all of the token, the Shogunate’s castles get the same amount of weapons. They were not everybody had access to the same goods. And everybody had the same amount of money. 

So those are the things. When they ran when Matthew Perry ran out of the old stuff, he comes back with the new stuff. He’s like, well, your money spends really well. We really like this golden silver that you’ve got. 

It’s really amazing. We’re willing to give you kind of our more advanced line. We’ve realized the Shogunate, he’s already got his stuff, but Emperor Meiji, perhaps you want to take some Howitzers and some Gatling guns. Maybe you’d like they don’t even have that. We’ve got some good stuff. 

Angie: These just these just came off the line. Exactly. They still have that new gun smell. No prior owners. 

Theresa: So this is kind of that incredible thing to really think about, right? Now, so we have the Shogunate’s forces, we have the Imperial forces, the battle wages for days. But it’s victory for the Imperial troops because they have access to better weapons. This is every time, honestly, right? Like a machine gun is a great equalizer. I think that’s our takeaway. 

Angie: Yes, I think that’s also the title of this episode. 

Theresa: So surprising know what the Japanese feudal lords that see this, they kind of switch sides from the Shogunate to the Emperor because they want to be on the winning side. 

Angie: I would like to remain among the living. Exactly. 

Theresa: Yeah, you know, especially now where I can kind of hold on to some of my name and gravitas, pass something down to my children. Because if I remain with the losers, I’m going to be eating dirt clods for the next several decades. 

And that doesn’t sound appealing. Well, Brunei and the Shogunate’s admiral, Imooto, or Inomoto Takayaki, they flee north to the capital city of Edo. And that’s now modern day Tokyo. Okay. And they get on this warship called the Fuji-san. 

Fuji-san also means Mount Fuji. Okay. Little sidebar there. Now, the French policy, they’re like, Hey, we are the Switzerland of Japan, we’re remaining neutral. And they have, you know, the mission that they’re on, they’re like, Well, we’re just going to call it quits and withdraw. Okay. All of Brunei’s friends are like, Yeah, deuces. Jules refuses. 

Angie: Because I’m doing the thing. I like these guys. They’re my friends. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. So he chooses to fight alongside Tokugawa. 

Theresa: And he writes a letter to Emperor Napoleon III. And he’s aware that his actions are either going to be seen as insane or treacherous. Okay. Yeah. And he explains, quote, A revolution is forcing the military mission to return to France alone. 

I stay alone. I wish to continue under new conditions. The results obtained by the mission together with the party of the north, which is the party favorable to France and Japan. 

Soon, a reaction will take place. And the dimos of the north have offered me to be its soul. I have accepted because with the help of 1000 Japanese officers and non commission officers, our students, I can direct the 50,000 men of the confederation. Well, that’s a lot. He’s like, So look, if the Tokugawa wins, we’re gonna have a better chance in France because France and Britain are also selling Japan guns. Right. 

And they like to have a favor favorable stage and you know, alliance in the whole mind. So Napoleon goes, I have fun, but do you later? Now, all your mom. Yeah, right home. Would you? 

She’s nervous. The Imperial forces in Tokyo are victorious again. And this is in large part due to the token now a shogun. He decides to submit the emperor and he surrenders the city and only small bands of shogun forces continue to fight back. 

So he is on the struggle bus. Okay. Now, we also have the admiral that was with Jules Bernay, Inomoto Takayaki. He refused to surrender and he heads north in hopes to rally Aizu clan samurai. 

Okay. So he’s the one who goes to the castle of Aizu and goes, Hey, we’re going to need y’all to rally. So you have an idea. 

Yeah, like, Hey, it’s not to suck. So he invites the troops out, leaving the castle filled with only women and old, you know, the veterans and the people that are just beyond their glory days. Non-convattants. Exactly. Right now, they will fight, but their knees and back hurt. 

Angie: Right, right, right. There is not enough IB prophet to deal with this. 

Theresa: So that is where I kind of went. Oh, wow. Okay. So that’s, that’s what stirred that pot. Now, they, the, the Aizu clan, they become the so-called northern coalition of feudal lords who joined the remaining Poko Gau leaders and, and they refuse to submit the emperor death or dishonor. 

That’s what kicks off giving Star Wars. Honestly. Okay. 

So now go back to Brunet. He agreed to assist with military structure and what would be the short lived and unrecognized Republic of Aizu. And this is a unique political experiment that, and they could own, and the only attempt to establish a republic on Japanese soil during the 19th century. And I didn’t, I didn’t spin off into what that is or anything like that. 

I got too distracted, but that could probably be its own episode. Okay. He organizes the army into core style units and trains the forces in very much so French methods. 

Okay. Now they’re receiving their training based on Napoleonic doctrine and Brunet helps fortify Goryokaku, which has been built to a star plan by European engineers during earlier phases of reform. So they, they kind of take this thing that like we’re going to Frenchify this thing. Okay. You are now Francophiles. 

Angie: Whether you want it or not. Exactly. 

Theresa: And he’s overseeing all of this with what is described as calm authority. I like him. So this ends up kicking off the battle of Hokutate. And this is between May 4th through May 27th in 1869. So the battle of Aizu is already coming gone. They got their ass kicked. And Brunet works alongside Otoori and other Japanese commanders to coordinate the final defense of Aizu. 

As the Imperial troops close in, he remained at his post until the resistance collapsed. Wow. Because this was a foregone conclusion and they were trying their damnedest. 

God, do what you have to do. Some sources say that the Japanese leaders spared him from punishment and that he ultimately surrendered to French diplomats who negotiated his return home. Okay. Other sources say as a high profile combatant of the losing side, Brunet is now a wanted man in Japan. Okay. 

Angie: This also makes sense. Get the guy with the big nose 

Theresa: and the, the, the not black hair. He should be easy to find. 

Angie: He’s probably a little taller. Yeah. 

Theresa: Yeah. Now, fortunately, there’s a French worship nearby that evacuates him to Hokkaido just in time. And then he’s ferried on to Saigon that’s at the time controlled by the French and then returned to France. Okay. But that ends up being the story of James Brunet or sorry, Jules Brunet, the last samurai. 

Angie: Does he ever, did I miss the part where he is like given that title? Like, I mean, is there like a ceremony or just, there’s no real ceremony, right? 

Theresa: But I mean, the fall of the Tokugawa Shogunate is the fall of samurai. Right. And you have this guy coming in. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So I like it. The movie Tom Cruise, the last samurai is loosely, loosely based on him. 

Angie: Loosely based on the idea of him. 

Theresa: Right. And it could be that maybe Tom Cruise couldn’t cobble together a French accent to save his life. It could be that maybe we decided not to pander to the French when the movie was released. 

Angie: Could be that Tom Cruise just really wanted to be a samurai. I mean, these are things. There’s, there’s a lot of reasons it could be. That’s really cool. I just, I’m having this image of him. And the funny thing is, is this whole time, I keep picturing him in like the 1920s. I am like so far ahead. Yeah, I’m a little off, right? So every time you say Napoleon, I’m like, hmm? Why? Why Napoleon? My visual is wrong here. 

Theresa: Yeah, but I mean, it’s okay. Here’s the crazy thing. You have to remember that this kicked off eight years after the American Civil War. Right. So Japan almost could have called Abraham Lincoln to request help rather than Napoleon III. 

Angie: Which is again, one of those weird moments in that history does not exist in a vacuum. It is a Napoleon and a Lincoln were alive at the same time. 

Theresa: That is mind-blowing fact number one. And then you throw in Samurai and you’re like, no, you’re making it up. You are very silly. You next are going to tell me there’s an arms dealing Matthew Perry. Ha! David, it’s a callback. 

Angie: I love me some Matthew Perry, the specific arms dealing Matthew Perry. That’s fun. I’m loving the visual and it’s not Tom Cruise, so that’s a win for me. You’re welcome. Thanks for that. It’s my turn, isn’t it? 

Theresa: It is. That’s how this works. 

Angie: Oh, all right. Let me find my notes then. Okay. So did you know that this… I’m just going to start off by saying, did you know that this week is Mother’s Day? 

Theresa: I would figure that out when flowers did or did not show up. 

Angie: So I’m going to tell you the story of Atosia. My sources are EBSCO research, Atosia Encyclopedia Ironica, The History of Iran, Atosia, the Celestial and Terrestrial Lady of Ancient Iran. There is an article from a source called HistoryofRoyalWomen.com. 

It is actually on Atosia’s mother and it’s very short, which made me really sad, but anyway. There is another delightful article on Ancient War History. So we have a warhistory.com and an Ancient War History and I like that there’s two. 

Theresa: I am kind of like, we’re talking about Mother’s Day and my sources are AncientWarHistory.com. You’re singing my song. 

Angie: I know. I’m here for it. The Persian Dilemma is what this one’s called and I’m not going to tell you the full name because I don’t want to blow it yet. There is a YouTube channel called Histocrat at Night that had pulled together a really good maybe 20 minute long animation of her life. 

I’ve probably watched it three times because I was like, okay, this is fun. Okay, so what does Cyrus the Great, Darius the First, and Xerxes all have in common? The region they lived in. And one woman. 

Oh, okay. So to celebrate Mother’s Day, I’m going to tell you about the life of Atosia. She is the daughter, wife, and mother of kings. Atosia was born around 545-550 BCE in Persia, which is today modern day. Her mother was a woman called, I’m going to try so hard to say this right because when I see it, I want to say Cassie and Dane. 

Cassadine, C-A-S-S-A-N-B-A-N-E, but my fantasy reader just really wants to jack that up so bad. And Atosia’s father is Cyrus the Great. She is the eldest child. For a little context here, her father has forged an empire that spans three continents, from the borders of Egypt to India, the Mediterranean to Central Asia. He is a tolerant visionary ruler with this multi-ethnic and multi-religious people, and local custom remains regardless of where you are. 

Theresa: Like, Brona was the son. That’s what the Mongols did. Quite frankly, I appreciate. 

Angie: Me too. Like, if you’re going to do it, do it right. If you’re going to have such a huge empire, you can’t expect everybody to be the same. Okay. That said, there are like oodles and oodles and oodles of sources on him, so we don’t really need to get into it. Like, there’s a ton of information out there, but there’s very little information on her mother, and that could be chalked up to the fact that they don’t keep records of women very well during this time because of the patriarchy and all that. But women are valued in Persia, and so I just think it’s a matter of more cultural than it is value. 

That makes sense. Like, women aren’t recorded not because they’re not important, just because they’re just not. But we know about them specifically through the actions of the men in their lives because the men are heavily recorded, so you can sort of see where the women are playing, if that makes sense. 

You can see them in the shadow. Right. So, Atosa’s family’s religion and the Persian culture in general gives elite women way more freedoms. She’s incredibly educated with the intent that she is going to hold an active role in government. Like, she’s not just going to be some foreign king’s like arm jewelry, and she has raised knowing this. Like, she has raised knowing she is going to have an active role in government. 

She has raised knowing that she will be in a position of power and a position of authority, a position of influence, and so she sort of is prepped for this her whole life. Good. I love this. Her religion and that her family practices and I’ve tried to pronounce this right multiple times this week, so hopefully I’ve got it today. Zoroastrianism. I say it wrong every time. No, it’s Zoroastrianism. 

Theresa: Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism. I love my brand kind of way. Delete. 

Angie: Every time. And I’m like, because here’s the problem. There is another word that’s very similar that is not that word and I keep putting the two together and I know I’m wrong. But anyways, this religion does not dictate that women are subservient. In fact, they can hold property, conduct business and are involved in religious ceremonies in places of leadership and honor and they hold a ton of autonomy. This is before Christ. Like this is BCE, which I think is just so important to point out. 

Now, for the most part, most of what we know, I love this so much. Most of what we know about her life comes from a Greek historian and geographer, Herodotus, who was living in the Greek city of telekinesis, which is under Persian control during the fifth century. If I did my math right, he’s about five when a tozer dies. So he’s not exactly first person, but he could be considered first person because he’s writing like not long after in a case of this far long ago, right? 

Theresa: And he did write about stuff that he didn’t necessarily witness. 

Angie: I tell him stuff he didn’t witness because he was five when she died, right? So like here we are. I guess all that to say take my whole story with a grain of salt because he wasn’t alive to see her personally. 

Theresa: Well, he wouldn’t like to remember her accurately. How about that? Right. 

Angie: But since we do know so much about the men in her life, like I said, we can sort of piece things together for her as well. Moving on, she’s about 15, 20 years old. Her dear old dad dies on campaign. Now remember, she is the oldest daughter of those. 

She’s like she’s the oldest child in general, so just keep that in mind. His son and a tozer’s brother, he takes the throne. His name is Kambisi II. His reign is from 529 to 522, and he needs a wife. So he arranges to marry a tozer because of this belief in the pure blood that it will strengthen their rule. Some sources differ on this issue. 

Some say that this close relation marriage is totally acceptable, but brother’s sister is way too close. Others say no altogether. Some say it’s the thing to do because that’s what happens in Egypt. 

Theresa: I was thinking a very Egyptian response there, but… 

Angie: Yeah, whatever the reason, Kambisi’s goes to the administrative elders, and he’s basically like, I’m going to marry her, you guys, cool with it, and they’re like, well, I’m the king. It’s done to argue with you. Right, but because he does this, it does lead to some negative propaganda on his part later on. Either way, whatever the cultural belief at the time about marrying your sister was, other people had things to say, and they used it against him, which I think is kind of fun, and I wish I could find that propaganda for myself. But anyway, around 525, Kambisi goes to war with Egypt, and he wins, but this time away has cost him… It’s led him to worry about his stability at home, and so he has his brother, Biyardia, or Samaritis. He goes by both names, which is weird, but anyway, he hasn’t killed, so he can’t possibly have a rival to the throne. That’s his idea. 

Theresa: And that’s how you deal with somebody that’s got some bizarre names that you don’t want to deal with. You just offer them. 

Angie: Right, but because he’s doing this in this sort of paranoid state, he does it in secret, and then anybody that does know is like sworn to keep it that way, and this backfires spectacularly, because his death, supposed to having been secret, the public doesn’t know, and so they don’t question anything when Samaritis comes back to court, because they don’t know he died. Now, in Herodotus’ telling of events, it’s a little convoluted, but to make it easy, I’ll just say that at some point, Biyardia-slash-Samaritis shows up and Cambesus is on campaign, and he gets word, and on the way home, he gets wounded, so he’s coming home to deal with this issue, right? On the way home, he gets wounded and dies. Maybe he commits suicide, the sources differ, but long story short, he’s dead, and Biyardia-Samaritis steps right in. He throws a little uprising, he takes the throne, and it’s really good time to tell you that he is more likely an impostor than he is actually the brother. There’s a man also called Samaritis, the Magin, and he very much looked like Samaritis, the brother. 

Theresa: Oh, no. That’s the worst time to share a name and likeness. Right? 

Angie: And to really solidify things with the followers that are siding with him, he offers them three years of tax relief. So now he’s super popular, and this is not great, because also at the same time, he has taken over the harem. Okay. 

All the women, right? And from…I listened to a podcast…or excuse me, no, it was in the YouTube video. They mentioned how when he was in power, albeit short, but when he was in power, he kept the women separated, so there was a very strong lack of communication between the women within the harem, but they were starting to figure stuff out. And so along the way, a man called Darius, who later we know as Darius the Great, but right now he’s just a lesser prince from another of the royal branches, but he is one of Cambyses’ generals. 

He takes charge of the Persian army, and he’s headed home, like he’s bringing the March home. And this whole time, you might be wondering, well, this story is about a woman, so what’s a toes of doing? She’s scheming. 

Theresa: So I have to say, is she in the harem? Like where she posted that? 

Angie: She’s back in her quarters in the harem doing like wife stuff, sort of. Like, okay, her and her first husband, Cambyses, they have no children. And Bairdia Samaritis takes her husband’s wife, puts her in his harem, and like I said, keeps all the women separated, and this allows for all sorts of palace intrigue, for example. There is a woman and another noble figure, I don’t have his name, but they together figure out he’s an impostor. So the story goes that this noble man starts to think that perhaps this Bairdia Samaritis is not actually the brother. And one of his daughters, who happens to also be in the harem and is married to him, says, actually, you know, I think that they look close, but I don’t think they’re right. And she’s like, yeah, no, actually he doesn’t have his ear. 

And this matters. This is because his ear, like this is the ear type, or he’s missing the entire left one. The entire ear. This matters because prior to all of this, Cambyses had cut the ear off Samaritis, the Magian, as punishment for some crime and some army crime. 

And then this guy shows up, takes over as king, and lo and behold, he is missing an ear. So the women are like, what? We have been had by an impostor. 

This is not okay. Literally had. And then, like literally, right? And the nobles are like, we need to do something about it. But it’s cool because Darius arrives and himself and six other leading nobles overthrow the impostor with a quickness and declare that Darius is the rightful heir to the now empty throne. Darius takes one look at a psalm and realizes how important she is. Like, any children with her are destined for greatness as the grandchildren of Cyrus the Great. 

And his rule by taking her as a bride will make him completely legitimate. I see where he’s going. Yep. 

Right? So if you’re counting, she is the daughter of Cyrus the Great and the wife to now three separate kings. So to say that she is a kingmaker is quite an understatement, in my opinion. Now, just an aside for her, which I think is really fun, because of her culture, she holds a ton of properties like all over the empire. And she embarks on all sorts of trade and commerce and like these merchant routes everywhere. So she is wealthy and powerful in her own right. Like, Cis does not need no man to do what she wants to do. 

And this super comes in handy for Darius because as he is campaigning or, you know, as he’s either campaigning along trying to conquer more of the known world or putting down any revolts that may be uprising, he’s going to need to be resupplied. And it’s her network that does it. Like, he is constantly using her sources, her network, her people, her supply shops, her, I don’t want to say the word factory, but like, it’s her business, her commerce that he is using to fund and feed his campaign, which I think is so cool. Not only that, but like, despite the fact that in his government, she really has no official role of governance in the kingdom. Like, there isn’t like a name for what she does, but she has immense influence and power. And given things like her lineage and her knowledge and her previous positions with all the former kings, she is like this invaluable force for Darius. And by all accounts, they work really, really well together. They’re big into like building arts and education centers and religious centers and things that are going to help the culture of their people across their empire. And they’re working on these things together. She’s putting out like permits and different edicts in her own name. And people are like, yes, ma’am. 

Wow. Like, done, which I think is so, so cool. So like I said, they work really, really well together. But if you want to take a minute to sort of point out some of the other women in Darius’ life, because she’s not the only one. Like, he has got a whole harem and has taken otherwise. She has also, for example, married a Tosa’s sister, Arisone, and her niece, Parmice, who happens to be the daughter of the murdered Giardiaeur Samaritis. So like, it sounds a little complicated. 

It’s a little messy. Now, the original, the original brother, not the imposter brother, I should state that. Now, for Darius, he sets out like as soon as he takes the throne for his part, he sets out to stabilize the government. He wants to be remembered for like his administrative capabilities, which I think is cool. 

Like, cool that I can conquer stuff, but like I really actually just want to be known for the fact that like my people have a stable economy and can eat dinner every night. Yeah. That bodes well. Yeah. What? 

Wild, right? Now, a Tosa with her like great influence over him, she sort of puts this bug in his ear that he might consider an expedition into Greece. So this story comes from the perspective of Araratidus. He says there’s this doctor called Demesades, and he’s Greek, and he had been taken to Persia during a war in Asia Minor. But while he’s there, he had become the court physician after successfully treating Darius and then having successfully helped heal some sort of growth on a Tosa. 

Some, something maybe it might have been some sort of breast cancer, but he helped, like, he, she’s healed. So this sort of goes really well for him. And because of this, she promises him any honorable favor that he’d like. Well, Bro wants to go home. 

So he asks her to convince Darius to consider going to war with Greece and would she send him with Darius on an exploratory mission where he plans to escape because Bro wants to go home. Right. 

Theresa: Can he just be like, Hey, can I get a hall pass? 

Angie: I don’t know. I’m still like you would think he would just, she would just say, Yeah, you can go home and that’d be the end of it. I’m unclear why there had to be a whole plan hatched. But anyway, a plan has been hatched. And she agrees for a multiple reasons. But also because there’s this advantage of him being there, she can use him as a spy. So she’s like, Hey, actually, you being back in Greece could be like really beneficial for me because like, I’m always looking for information and I’m always looking to expand my horizons here. 

Yeah, this, this could work. So according to her audit, she goes to Darius and she says, quote, My Lord, you have very great power and yet you sit idle. You have not added any nation or power to the empire of Persia. It is right for a man who is young and is master of great wealth to achieve something for all to see that the Persians may know that he who rules them is truly a man. Indeed, there is a double benefit in such a course. The Persians will know their leader is a man. And also they themselves will be worn down by the war and will not plot against you as they might were they at their leisure. And it is now you should go do this while you are young for as the body grows, so the mind grows with it. And as the body grows old, so does wit grow old and is blunted towards all matter alike. My guy Darius is like, You know what? Yeah, let’s do it. 

Theresa: You’re right. I’m still young and hot. Let’s go to Greece. Right. 

Angie: So he sends this recon group to Greece. And here’s where the three might start sounding really familiar to you. Darius, having sent the recon group to Greece, is now preparing for war with Egypt and Athens. And as per Persian law, must make an heir. He has several sons and his two oldest sons are sort of fighting over the throne. But these are sons from different women and from before he was king. He has his oldest son. He’s like, Yo, I’m the oldest by default. 

It should go to me. However, Darius and Ateusa, they have four sons. Four. Their eldest being Xerxes. He was born in 519. Okay, here we go. And there is this former deposed Spartan king telling Xerxes, You know what? Actually, it should be you that’s king because in Sparta, the son born after the father has attained the throne is actually heir. So Darius is like, Well, actually, yeah, that sort of makes sense, right? Like, I married it. 

Oh, wait, right? I married Ateusa because all my children with with Cyrus’s bloodline. Yeah, this super makes sense. Um, so Xerxes is made heir. But telling you the story in this way sort of negates all the work that Ateusa does as the mother of Xerxes to put him there in the first place. Like, yes, all of this matters, but she’s the one that sought his education and she’s deemed to remove any other of the options from the conversation. Like, she just continually put Xerxes in front of Darius. Like, actually, actually, um, actually, so he becomes Crown Prince and he becomes the governor of Babylon to like get his rulership on. 

Theresa: Like, we know what I’m doing, right? Now, if I was the eldest son and I saw Ateusa, I would end up with snipers on the rooftop going for the younger brothers. 

Angie: Well, doesn’t that explain the Ottoman Empire? Yeah, honestly. Right. So Herodotus in all of this says quote, but I myself believe that even without the advice, Xerxes would have become king for Ateusa held all the power. So like, this is going to do what she wanted to do anyway. Like, for you Darius, but she’s really the one in charge. Now, this power, it continues to show Ateusa has big influence and authority all over the royal court. And as the daughter of Cyrus the Great and the wife of three kings, she has all the experience and expertise. 

I cannot state this enough to run government and state of affairs. So Xerxes, he’s now the crown prince and rules as governor of Babylon. And then upon Darius’s death in 1486, he takes the throne. Here, she is now going to have influence as the queen mother, which I think is awesome. So now she’s made how many kings? 

Theresa: Yeah. Four, five, right? She’s rolling some Catherine to Medici numbers at this point. 

Angie: This is handling it. So Xerxes is going to rule from 486 to 465 when he’s assassinated by what I understand might be the captain of his own guard. Like, there’s a whole story here. Like, I’m really curious about it. But there, what’s interesting is what we know about the rest of the Toeza’s life comes from this play that is performed in 472. It is called, I want to say Persia, but I think it’s Persi. And it gives us the end of her life through the eyes of a Greek. And the play is performed in Athens about eight years after the victory against Xerxes at the Battle of Slamis. So like 484. 

Theresa: They’re celebrating the losers. 

Angie: Like, okay, this is how much influence she had because she is technically the enemy, right? Yeah. And the Greeks are like this woman. Oh my gosh. Like, they cannot quietly praise her enough. I know that’s a weird sentence, but like they’re, they don’t ever appear to vilify her. They do make statements like, oh, she was interested in conquering Greece because she wants Greek women as slaves. But maybe that’s true. Who knows? But it was never from a perspective of like giving her bad news, bad coverage. 

It was like, oh, she’s powerful. Crap. Perhaps we should behave. Wow. Perhaps. So at this point, you can take over and tell us the story of Artemisia of Hell with Cernus, if you want. But you don’t have to. 

Theresa: Right. And I mean, that was what, I don’t even remember what episode that was. Gosh. That was a 20? I said it was early. 

Angie: Yeah, it was an early one. Now we have to stop and look because I am also curious. 

Theresa: It was 25. Oh, I feel close. Oh, she’s close. Sharing. This feels right. 

Angie: So basic gist, 481, Xerxes begins this land and see invasion of Greece. He’s not successful as he’s hoped to be. This battle is a major defeat for the Persian fleet and also a turning point in the Persian wars. Xerxes goes home and he leaves someone else in charge of his operations. Now in the play, Atosha hears of the defeat and there’s this whole scene where she like calls on the ghost of Darius. 

And for what I’m assuming is going to be advice on like how to handle this. But by the time Xerxes returns home, she hasn’t mentioned anymore. So we think that between that and the other sources, she dies around this time. If that’s accurate, she lived well into her 70s. 

Theresa: At a girl. Right. I am just answer by breast cancer. 

Angie: Yeah, in the 500 BCE, which is wild. But keep in mind all the while her mechanisms and skills, they’re funding and supporting every king she had sway over. If you’re counting that as one father, Cyrus the Great, two other kings of the husband, Darius the Great, then Xerxes, that’s five. 

Cis ruled the world in my opinion. Like that he must be the first kingmaker as far as I’m concerned, like she knows what’s up. All her other sons that were by Darius also held other important military and administrative positions. And while we don’t know like her exact date of death, what took her anything like that, we do know that given her power, her position, the fact that she appears to be a decent mother, like a decent queen mother, she would have been given the highest of state funerals for her time and place, which I think is a really cool visual, even though culturally I don’t know what it would look like from that far ago. 

Theresa: It’s so divorced from our culture that I would be silly to even… 

Angie: Like I’m imagining it based on like historical documentaries is what I think it could look like and that’s probably still so wrong. 

Theresa: Historical documentaries as directed by Michael Bay, let’s be honest. 

Angie: I was actually thinking like Discovery Channel. 

Theresa: Oh okay, alright, alright, I’ll quit, I’ll quit because I was solid 300. 

Angie: I do love 300, but that isn’t what I was thinking at all. Anyway, so that’s the story of Tessa, the Persian queen of the world. Happy Mother’s Day. Wow. 

Theresa: Yeah. I didn’t think we’d go full mom and war in one and win. That is awesome. So if you are a mom and listening to this, Happy Mother’s Day, if you are not a mom and listening to this, call your mother. Call your mom. Tell you lover. 

Yeah, you’ve got a couple of… this comes out on Friday, so you’ve got a little bit. Figure it out. Sort it out. Yeah. And on that note… She likes candy. Yeah, they all do. Goodbye. 

Theresa: Goodbye. Goodbye. 

Angie: Great. Now I have to find a new story for two weeks from now because of you.