Sometimes Theresa and Angie venture into the deep past.
Today, Theresa tells us about Thomas(ine) Hall, the intersex individual from Colonial America who spent the majority of their life swapping between sexes to live life.
Then, to remind us about Father’s Day, Angie shares the story of “Big Daddy Cnut,” the Viking ruler whose empire spanned England, Norway, and Denmark. And yes, Angie does indeed refer to this man as “Big Daddy Cnut.”
This episode pairs well with:
Transcript
Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast, the podcast where two compulsive idiots are going to mainline history and learn the stories that we never got to learn in school because school is made for standardized tests. I’m host one, I’m Teresa, and that’s host two. I’m Angie. Yeah. That’s us.
Angie: Standardized testing is so lame, I just want to put that out there.
Theresa: It is, and there was something I read, it was a long time ago, I can’t recall the source, I know it was a book, but it was talking about how standardized testing is in itself a form of classism. So, because you’ll get, like thinking about the SAT specifically, you will get students at prestigious schools where they will be taught how the test is set up, how to answer the questions. So, they learn the logic of the question asking.
Yeah, yeah, okay. So that they are better equipped to pass the test. Right. So, then you get the people like us who are pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and we don’t have the logic behind the question asking and we’re supposed to know the actual answer to the question itself. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Rude. Yeah.
Angie: I always hated standardized testing, but I did love filling in the bubbles on Scantron. I had a complicated relationship. There you go.
Theresa: I had teachers who, psychology teachers in college who would do things like intentionally make a run of answers like five B’s in a row. Mm-hmm. Just. I always question that. Yeah. Yeah. And once you figure out, oh, this is Ted Nichols class.
He does things purely to F with you. Like same teacher, he would do quizzes. And if you got a 10 out of 10, you got 10 points. If you got a zero out of 10, you got 10 points. If you knew the material so well, you could answer every question wrong. Intentionally, you would get 10 points.
Now here’s the mind of all of this. If you didn’t do the reading, you were like, ooh, I’m going to get maybe a three. I’m going to try to answer every question wrong. But inevitably, you would get one of those right and you’d be stuck with that one out of 10. Oh. That’s infuriating. He was a monster.
Angie: Okay. I was stuck. Okay. So my son for the outside world is graduating high school this year and he has officially enrolled in the junior community college that we have here in our area. And I was talking to him about how a lot of his classes are on Canvas and how like if you just play the game, do the modules, you’ll be set. Like just do your work and be done with it. And I said, we’ve already paid, like looked into one of his classes. The teacher already has a lot of things up.
Like you can check it out. I said, he’s going to be the one that you’re going to need to make sure you stay on top of. My God, I hope you get a guy like I had in my bachelor’s program. And he was like, what’s that? I said, it’s the guy that says you can do all of this in a day if you count a few red bulls. And he’s like, that’s an option.
I said, it was for Canvas. And I took every one of that teacher’s classes and aced every one of them because his motto was if you’re here, you want to be here. Like your adults are choosing to be here. You’re going to get out what you put in.
So three hours and a couple red bulls or you actually do the work all week. It’s you, not me. Right? I was like, you sir, are my freaking hero. Truth. He was hilarious. He’s by far one of my favorite teachers. He’s the one that got kidnapped on assignment.
Theresa: Oh, I only vaguely remember that story. But yeah, we should probably switch into podcasting before we end up like just record an hour and a half of bullshit, which would be delightful as well.
Angie: But forget why we’re here.
Theresa: Yeah, exactly. Story. Yeah. I go first. I just checked. I have a story that came out of listening to an audiobook, hearing literally a single line and saying, I’m sorry, what? What?
So I’m going to tell you the story of Thomas Hall or Thomas Seen Hall. Okay. All right. Okay, let’s go.
My sources out history.org legal case, Thomas Thomas Seen Hall, Virginia March 25th, 18, 1629. Oh, girl, we’re going back. I am going back. Women in the American story, Thomas, Ian Hall, Virginia.
Angie: So those that are not watching but only listening, she parentheses the Ian with a visual.
Theresa: Yeah, I bracketed that Ian. Virginia magazine of history and biography, volume 86, number two, April 1978, the sad case of Thomas Seen Hall by Aldeem T. Vaughn. And the podcast, C spans lectures in history, gays and lesbians in colonial America, a lecture from Santa Clara University, Professor Nancy Unger.
Angie: So I don’t know why the title of that one does not sit well with me.
Theresa: It’s weird to know that C span. Maybe that’s what it is. It has a series of lectures in history that are recorded in Santa Clara University. Like there’s so many non sequitur parts. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Angie: Maybe that’s what it is, but doesn’t sit well with me.
Theresa: Yeah, I think it’s the C span, but I promise you it was C span and it was like the weirdest thing. I almost didn’t even click listen, but it was worth it.
It gave some incredible context. Okay, well, let’s go then. Okay. So Thomas Seen and every time I say Thomas Seen is likely going to have the bracket around the I and E. Now they changed their gender identity throughout their entire lifetime. This story bounces between various sources, various parts of this human’s life. The pronouns that I spit out are very likely going to be fluid regardless of the best of my intentions. Okay.
I don’t mean it as a flight. If anything is an accurate depiction of their life in times because terms like trans, intersex, gender fluid, these are recent in history and life. Right. Okay. And they are ones that this person didn’t have access to. So ascribing those terms doesn’t necessarily feel right either. Right. Okay.
I’m picking up with you now. Now whether you’re looking at their name, the historical records referred to them as Thomas or Thomas Seen and that really corresponds with what’s going on at that moment in life. What we do know is Thomas Seen Hall is born around the year 1600 in Newcastle upon Tyne in England. Okay. The parents named and christened them Thomas Seen and raised them as a girl. Okay.
When they turned 12 they were sent to live with their aunt in London and they went clothed in women’s apparel. Okay. Okay. Then Thomas Seen or when Thomas Seen is around 20 years old their brother gets drafted or pressed into the English Navy or English Army. My apologies.
Angie: That’s crazy. Okay. I wouldn’t have thought that. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Theresa: So yeah, it would be what? 1620, brother ends up getting drafted and Thomas Seen decides, yeah, I’ll go with. The heck, I’m bored. Right. So Thomas cuts their hair, puts on men’s clothing, joins the Army using the name Thomas.
Angie: Did I miss the part where we know what gender they were born? You didn’t.
Theresa: I didn’t necessarily say I just said named them Thomas Seen and raised them as a girl. That’s what I thought you said. Okay. I didn’t say and unto us a girl is born. Right. Got it. Okay. There’s a lot of ambiguity. It will get crazier, more ambiguous and then it’ll get clear. Okay.
Speaker 3: Okay. Let’s go. I’m here.
Theresa: Thomas, Thomas Seen serves in the Army for about a year. When the service is done they settle in Plymouth, England and go back to wearing women’s clothing and go by the name Thomas Seen.
Angie: Now. Cool. So I just cut my hair and I’m a dude so I can serve in the Army for a little bit. Love that.
Theresa: Okay. And then come back, grow my hair out and wear a dress. Nothing stopping you from having a good time. Right. I mean, they’re just doing it for the plot at this point. Love that. Thomas Seen made their living crafting bone lace and doing other types of needlework or stuff that’s basically just women’s work. Okay. Now, like other working class people of their day, they kind of hear about this new opportunity for a brand new start up in the English colonies of North America. Okay.
So they kind of decide to cast their lots and take their chances in the colonies and they go as an indentured servant. Male or female? Put a pen in that. Okay.
Because in late 1627, they donned men’s clothing, signed a contract under the name Thomas and set out across the Atlantic Ocean. Okay. So fluid, right? Like what color is the sky today? Is it… What needs wants, I guess. Right. Like, okay. So again, ambiguity, okay? Now, when Thomas arrives in the colony of Virginia, they go to work for a man named John Tyos at a small tobacco plantation in Virginia.
Okay. Now, at first, Thomas Seen continued to dress and perform work of a man, but at some point, they just swap into women’s clothing and take on traditional women’s labor. And like nobody notices? They notice, but John appears to have no problem with this switch. Okay. Now, when the community pays attention and they’re like, go back one, go back one.
Angie: Because last week, I think you had pants on. And pants are, as we know, always the problem.
Theresa: Pants are always the problem. They should never be, but here we are. And so the community appears to have become less comfortable with this shift because we want pockets. And this is where John appears to have said that, no, no, I promise you, that’s a woman. That’s a chick. Or whatever. Yeah. That’s a woman.
That’s a chick. And the community, they’re not thrilled with this idea. And then there’s some rumors flirting around that Thomas, Thomas Seen, may have had sex with a maid from another household. Now, okay, if it’s Thomas that had sex with a maid, well, that’s considered for an occasion and they’re going to need to stand up for trial. That’s not acceptable up in here.
Angie: But if it’s Thomas Seen, there’s no crime. Right. Yeah. Okay.
Theresa: So three respected married women from the community take it upon themselves to inspect Thomas’s body to determine their sex.
Angie: I hate this for them, which to me is a solid deputy. Yeah. Yeah. Now they decide that Thomas Seen is definitely male. Definitely male. Owner John disagrees. Is owner John in the room with us?
Theresa: We’re going to get to that because I’ve got trial bits. OK. Which, you know, spoilers. Now, there’s it gets it’s it’s more complicated because there’s another John, a John Atkins, who they’re another member of the community. They had wanted to buy the indentured contract from John Tyos.
Angie: Now, the contract for the people
Theresa: or for that for the indentured service. Because you got to remember, Hall is an indentured service.
Angie: Yeah, no, I was making sure I checked that it’s the contract for the person and not just like something else.
Theresa: Yeah, if not indeed, not, you know, the ability to lease a house or what not. Now, John Atkins, he doesn’t feel comfortable with making this purchase unless he’s sure of the gender, because that determines the kind of work they’re allowed to perform. And it also affects the price.
You pay a different price for a man than you would a woman as you’re expecting different outputs. Right. Only I mean that harm labor.
Yeah. Now, John Atkins, he appeals to the plantation owner in a community and the plantation owner interviews Thomasine, who confessed that they had, quote, a piece of flesh growing at the dot, dot, dot, like, I guess we lost that part of the transcript. Belly as big as the top of their little finger. But that they didn’t have use of the man’s parts.
Angie: And those three women were like, nope, that’s definitely a man.
Theresa: But okay, imagine you see a micro penis. You think, well, that’s smaller than what I’ve got at home. I’m just going to be grateful. We have that at home. Yeah, we’re not stopping. We’ve got one at home.
Angie: Sorry. I just ruined your very serious explanation with we have one. I’m not cutting that out. Okay, got it. All right. I’m still going to be like, no, sorry, that’s just a piece of skin.
Theresa: I’m still going to be able to mindset it. You know what? I don’t care what’s in your pants.
Angie: Honestly, God, because really don’t you do you, babe, you do you. Yeah, like none of my business. Do you have pockets in your pants? That’s what I care about. Do you have pockets in the dress? These pockets in the dress, big enough to sit my phone and my teeth.
Theresa: I mean, because it’s a dress, so we should be able to fit a cutting board and a bunch of other things. Like, why are we limiting ourselves to carry on anyhow?
Angie: Moving on. Honestly, God, that’s what I care about.
Theresa: Now you would think looking going back to Thomas’s Thomasine’s testimony of their anatomy that they’re likely an intersex person. Okay, this sort of makes sense. Right. Now the intersex person, just for those playing at home, they’re born to the combination of male, female, genitalia. It still happens today. This is just what happens, right? Like this, this is just the things.
It’s a modern term for hermaphrodite. You know, we’ve moved away from that. But here we go. Most people in Virginia during this time period didn’t have access to hemaphrodite. They didn’t have words for this, no basis of knowledge. Now, Thomas, Thomasine, testified that since they didn’t have use of their penis that this shouldn’t be a necessarily issue and the plantation owner thought that Thomas’s report was reasonable and ordered Thomasine to wear women’s clothing. John Atkins goes on, purchases Thomasine’s labor or labor contract and they take up a position in his home as a woman laborer. And then from that point forward, well, I’m going to skip that part. Now the women who first inspected Hall’s body, they’re not happy with this decision because they know what they saw. Poor girls.
Angie: I’m not putting them.
Theresa: They conducted a second examination while Hall is asleep.
Angie: Absolutely not. No, thank you. Right.
Theresa: And the women had invited John Atkins to inspect his body as well. This is where they discover that this person had a, quote, piece of a hole. And that was reference to the female genitalia.
Angie: So they just have a little bit of each. Yeah. And it doesn’t appear that neither is enough to make a fool. Yeah.
Theresa: Okay. And so the plantation owner goes back on his word and says that now they have to wear men’s clothing. You found a hole though. But there was a penis.
Angie: Oh my God. Okay.
Theresa: So do you see like the back and forward of it? Whatever Thomasine wants. Right.
Angie: God, I’m so irritated. Okay.
Theresa: Carry on. The community goes back to getting up in arms because they want to see if Hall is culpable of sleeping with the maid servant whose name is great best. Great best. Yeah. Okay. I wasn’t there to name.
Angie: I’m here for it. Yeah.
Theresa: Either way. She’s best. The entire community now has gossiped the story into the ground and they’re all aware. Two men examine Hall on a public road. They stripped them of their clothing, pulled out their genitalia and declared that he was a perfect man as far as the community was concerned. The gender is settled and they decided to punish Thomas for pretending to be a woman.
Angie: Is that punishment greater or less than fornication?
Theresa: I don’t know. I don’t know. Okay. But either way, this comes to a head when Thomas Thomasine Hall appeared before a Quaker court in Jamestown, Virginia in 1629. So they share their story. They explained, look, I have gone back and forth like you.
You wouldn’t believe. And the community itself has no understanding of gender fluidity or intersex identities. This just isn’t a thing in the colonial era. And this is where a dude named Francis England tells the court of the rumor that Hall lied with the serving maid called great best.
And England also. Thanks, buddy. What was that? The thanks buddy. Yeah, but you know, honestly, that’s kind of why they’re all there in the first place. Truly.
Yeah. And England goes on to testify that when questioned by a certain captain bossy or base, I don’t know, it’s BASSE, Hall answered that he was both man and woman. Asked why he dressed like a woman. Hall reportedly answered along the line saying that they did it to get laid. They do it to get to get some. I mean, it was the phrase is literally I go in women’s apparel to get a bit for my cat, which apparently is slang. I’m sick.
Angie: I’ve never guessed. So, so the idea is because I’m dressed this way, I have more access to the ladies.
Speaker 3: Women tend to not leave their homes. They tend to be more sequestered.
Angie: So to get access to the account that you dress this way, your entire childhood.
Theresa: You know, it also I’m thinking they just have a bit of SAS and I’m here for it to be like,
Angie: well, why are you doing like that? I’m doing it for the lady. Just to them. Okay.
Theresa: You know, like Lannister, which honestly, it just I’m hoping it was said with SAS. That’s that’s how I took it. Yeah. Now, yeah. Hall’s response to Captain Beth didn’t satisfy the Virginians. So Hall or Francis England further testified that he and another dude were alone with Hall after hearing the rumors that Hall is a man and that the two of them said, I will see what thou carry is.
And then the men laid hands upon Hall through Hall on his back and England pulled out his members, which convinced England and Hall that he was quote, a perfect man. This makes that incident sound pretty stinking violent. I mean, either way. Yeah.
Yeah. Now, then we have John Atkins. He testifies about the three women examining Hall after hearing rumors that Hall was male and female and Atkins who tells us that there was a small penis. And then he says, well, that’s male. Now, Atkins retells Captain Basti’s assault on Hall and how the captain asked Hall their gender.
He said both. And then, you know, so basically you kind of learn all of this. And then he testifies they don’t have access or control of their sex organ.
And that’s when he’s told to dress like a woman again. So. So. Everybody basically everybody comes out and says, I vote this, I vote that I saw this, I saw that.
Angie: Meanwhile, the person with whom as this is just stuck to
Theresa: the decision of everybody else listening to regurgitations of their assault as told by members of the community. I hate that. Okay. Now, they also talk about how. Okay. So they go back and forth about how after this person saw this, well, now you have to dress like a man. Now this person saw that and he dressed like a woman. So they really go through the full lineage and the full story, which is why we have all of this laid out. The governor decided on an extraordinary verdict. Thomas Seen, brackets included there, is declared to be both a man and a woman. And they were required to wear clothing of both genders, the breeches and shirt of a man, the cap and apron of a woman. And this was so that quote, all inhabitants may take notice of Thomas Seen’s unusual status.
Angie: I want to believe this is the judge trying to make things right for them.
Theresa: You would be wrong in thinking that. Yeah, it feels so not that. It does feel so not that. And the reason why it doesn’t feel like that in the J store article that I had up at the top, it starts off by saying drunkards were branded with needing to wear a D on their clothing. Right.
Okay. And like you remember, Hester Prime, she was forced to wear the scarlet letter, the A for adulterous. This was literally to stamp out their differences.
It was a mode of ostracization in the community. It’s a symbolic stamp. Right. Now, what seems to have happened is it doesn’t necessarily absolve Hall about sleeping with great best, but basically that seems to have gotten lost in the chaos.
Angie: People care less about that than. Yeah. Everything else. Yeah. Long hair, short hair. Whatever. Right. Now.
Theresa: The court also doesn’t seem to clear up any questions the community had about the work that Thomas, Thomasine is allowed to do or expected to do. And at this point, Hall really just seems to disappear from official records. We don’t really know how their story ends. It could be that they moved to another community in the colonies. They took on a new name, lived under whatever gender.
But it is a really interesting case study on how sex, gender and identity are expressed in the English colonies. For real. Yeah. Now, in the lecture, the C-SPAN lecture that I had in my notes, there was something mentioned that was remarkable about homosexuality in the colonial era. The professor notes that the colonies view on sexuality and gender is really linked to the economic stability and not morality. In times of plenty, any real deviation from the commonly held view of heterosexual relationships, or in this case, intersex designation, is basically overlooked.
Angie: Now, we have other things to be entertained by. Yeah. Like we’re moving on.
Theresa: Now, it’s interesting to really think about this because sodomy is a capital offense. Right. But there’s so few people condemned to death. It doesn’t mean that there weren’t homosexual relationships happening.
It just means that no one really cared. Now, when they’re going through tough times, there is an extra focus on a lot of conformity and being in these heterosexual relationships that produce children because we need to get out of this. We need more hands to lift the weight. Right. And that it seems to be all based in economics and not morality. And that was mind blowing.
Angie: I mean, it makes sense to feel like when you think about it, if we are struggling, what do we blame and how do we fix it? Yeah. And if we’re not, then move along. Like things that we see here. Find your own business. Exactly. Yeah. Like there’s no, it totally makes sense. It sucks, but it makes sense. Right.
Theresa: And then even in Hall’s case, the biggest set of issues really seem to arrive when they’re indentures up for sale.
Angie: Right. Because their former master didn’t seem to.
Theresa: Yeah. I was just like, okay, you don’t want to work in the field today. So you’re going to like fix the tablecloth. Have at it.
Angie: At the tablecloth, I think it’s fixing. Right.
Theresa: You know, go on and get it. But as soon as there’s this financial need, now we have to get to the bottom of this. Right. That makes sense. I hate that. But I do have something interesting for you that I bet you weren’t expecting. I have a picture. I’m so excited.
Angie: Sorry, Remy. I scared my dog. Okay. So it’s like a, it looks like a woodblock etching, maybe. Definitely dressed as a colonial woman with the scarf over the head. Is that a vest and flowers?
Theresa: Maybe carrots or maybe just variety things that could be an artichoke. Those could be carrots.
Angie: But yeah, okay. Like it’s a basket from the garden. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that screams female to me. In this setting, yeah. Yeah. I could easily see how though, the way that they created their face, how they keep transition so easily back and forth. To be fairly androgynistic. Yeah. Yeah. It’s actually beautifully done. Well done. Yeah.
Theresa: But there you go. That’s my story.
Angie: Um, that’s, that’s, I, whoa, sorry. It’s a great story and I loved it. And I would not have thought about looking at colonial America for a story for this month.
Theresa: It caught me off guard. So when I heard it, I was like, go on. Must share.
Angie: I have a story. I do. Swear to you, I have a story. Pull my nose up. Okay. Because, um, this is my father’s day story.
Theresa: Oh, yeah, I’ve, you did one for Mother’s Day and we aired it the week after Mother’s Day. And I was assuming that after the fact we did that. I mean, I realized that after the fact too, I was listening to it as it came out when, oh, swing and a miss.
Angie: You know, it was because in my brain, so when we were recording it, that was, it would air before and then when it aired after I was like, okay, anyway, this one will air a couple of days before Father’s Day. Okay. So I’m going to tell you the story of Canute. Not Ring and Bells. Sweet. I am so excited because this is my bread and butter. Um, one of my sources is the History is Now magazine has an article titled King Canute, the medieval king who ruled many European lands.
Theresa: Now I’m with you.
Angie: Carry on. Okay. The Viking Ship Museum, which you would think would have an exceptional article on him, had exactly one paragraph and I was simply devastated. So I am just keeping it in there to say that I read it and then devastated.
Get it together, people. And historicuk.com has. many great articles that I read and referred to. So I’m just going to hold up with the historic UK.com under their history section is tons of information from this time. And then there is the Viking raid on the fair is the English Heritage Grades. So, oh, and also the talking history podcast with Patrick Geogenhagen, if I’m pronouncing that right.
Probably not. I don’t think I’m pronouncing it right at all, but it looks like half of George and half of Hagen. So here we go. He does this like he has this panel of experts, whether they’re authors or professors or whatever the case may be like, and he kind of does a roundtable talk with them. And so in this case, he is he does a roundtable talk with new thing the subject. So my preface for this week’s story is that for the sake of storytelling, I will refer to the story as part of the Viking age that is not the term they would have used its term more modern historians place on the era for context. Viking is more closely related to a job title than a whole people group. I’m sure that’s common knowledge, but just to put that out there.
Theresa: Yeah, I mean, because we’re going to get comments, I’m sure when we post this on social.
Angie: Yes, and I will sit there and defend my honor forever. So I’m going to say that they would have more refer to themselves as their people group. So for example, can you he is a Danish prince, so he would have referred to himself as a day. Despite the fact that their history is considered violent with quite a lot of upheaval, upheaval and political unrest, they’re no more violent than the other people groups around them at the same time. They just have this for whatever reason. And I think it’s all propaganda. They have this history that looks incredibly violent for the time.
They’re not. So again, propaganda. And we need to take into consideration their story is not written by them.
Their story is written by their opponents. That’ll do it. Yeah. Right.
Okay. So all that the saga themselves wouldn’t be written down until the 13th century. So even if the sagas were written down by someone of North descent, they weren’t written down until the 13th century and canute is operating in the 11th century. And the Viking Age has started long before that, right?
So we’re dealing with like hundreds of years of propaganda, in my opinion. Despite the fact that there’s a great deal about canute, his, his story falls. And I think this is why he’s so interesting to me. His story falls right on the cusp of legend. Like he, we know he existed.
There’s document approved. There’s, archaeological evidence on top of like actual documents. But because he himself sits in such a front in a timeframe, there’s this like misty area of did he, which makes it really fun for me. He himself is he believed that he was the like fourth grade grandson of Ragnar Lawsburg, who really does sit firmly in mythology. There is evidence of his existence too. Now there’s a lot less evidence of his existence, but it’s there.
So fun fun, right? Okay, now in his, in Canute’s case, we know he was real. There’s, there’s so much. And I could literally talk about just the evidence of his existence for hours. We’re not going to bore you with that.
Theresa: Okay, so wait a minute. Wait a minute. I also want to confirm one thing. Isn’t your husband somehow related to this line? No, it’s me. Oh, okay. I thought you were completely tandering to hubby.
Angie: Oh, this is my story through and through. Tandering to hubby would be like Charlemagne. Okay. He would absolutely love. But anyway, Canute is born between 990 and 950. He’s the son of Swain Forkbeard and likely a Polish princess.
Theresa: Now, I like how it’s the way you said that was it could have been Forkbeard and the Polish princess, but my brain translated that as he is a could be a Polish princess.
Angie: I mean, you do eat the food. We’re not trying to stop you. Um, we just don’t know for sure who his mother was. The most likely candidate is a Polish princess. Now, Forkbeard, Forkbeard spends a great deal of his time rating in true Viking fashion, and then he doubles a bit in some patrify, the game full control of the areas of his father’s rule. Now, his father is Harold Bluetooth, the man for his name. We share the symbol.
Okay. So, Harold Bluetooth is sort of like a boss when you consider that he’s, he’s like the original unifier of like, he’s what brings Denmark and Norway together. However, like in his case, he is a super pivotal ruler. He reigns as king of Denmark and Norway and his reign lasts from about 958 to 986.
And he further solidifies his unification by introducing Christianity as the official religion. He’s also constructing defensive fortifications. But like the coolest thing that Bluetooth does in my opinion, and this does matter, is he commissions something called the Gelling Stone. And this is actually now UNESCO World Heritage site. And it kind of shows the enduring symbolism of his Danish identity. The stone translates to say King Harold had the stone erected in memory of Gorm, his father, and Sarah, his mother.
I’m going to stop nerding out right now. Harold, who subdued all of Denmark and Norway and turned the Danes into Christians. And like, he has the stone erected to just like his is what I did. Look at me, mom. Pretty much. So what’s in his son is he’s kind of seeing dad grow into this sort of weak and ineffective ruler.
And so he throws a little bit of the rebellion and takes them out. And then he firmly sets his eye on England. Now, Vikings have been rating England since at least 799, making their rather big debut at the Lynn Stair Pryor in off the Northumbria coast in 793. Like that’s when they’re big like, oh, crap, the Vikings are here. That’s the moment, right? They had been off and on rating before that, but that was the dawn of the Viking age in the West. Again, I can talk about this for hours.
Theresa: Right. I’m here for this. I mean, like, go on.
Angie: So, Slein Forkbeard, he’s been like, he’s been running the English coast for a while, and the Vikings as a whole have been rating the English coast for a few hundred years by this point. And he’s like, you know, I just, we could do more with England.
We could, we could, we could make this work. Okay. Cause so part of the thing is they’re also looking for farmland. They want food. Norway is not the most farmable landscape.
So, no, this keeps that in your mind. I’m not sure that Denmark’s any better, but, but they are not just like, we’re not just here to steal your silver. Like we need farmland. Yeah, we can’t, we can’t eat the crown. Pretty much.
Okay. So he, he’s thinking, he’s looking at England and he’s like, yeah, we could, we could, we could make this work. And so with the help of his then teenage son, Knute, they set out to do just that. Now by this point, England had been united under King Athelstan, which happened in the early 900s. And there’s like literally so much history here.
So just little it down to like that sentence absolutely killed me. But just know he’s kind of, he’s kind of unified the whole area and and since, you know, men don’t live several hundred years anymore, Athelstan’s been dead for a hot minute. They don’t live that long anymore. You know, we don’t live several hundred years.
Theresa: Right. There’s no Methuselus running around at this point.
Angie: Did I say anymore? You did. Oh, we don’t live several hundred years is what I meant to say. Athelstan, he’s been dead for a hot minute and a man called Athelrad, the Unready is King foreshadowing his deep in the same game because he is so unready for when big daddy Knute rolls up with his dad and he’s like, oh, mother of God.
Theresa: This is proof you don’t pick your own nickname. On goodness. Now, yeah, you don’t roll it to the party being like, Hey, I’m the Unready. Have you met me? I’m the Unready.
Angie: The Unready implies not that like he lacked his ability to like be prepared for something. It’s more of the indication that he is like not given enough information. He’s ill advised. He has no counsel.
I don’t know why Unready is what they choose because Athelrad the Unadvised would have probably made more sense. But anyway, that’s what we’re dealing with. So here’s the short of what happened. After Swen Forkbeard rids himself his dad, he turns all of his aggression towards England. It’s about the 990s and he is forcing the ineffective King Athelrad, the Unready, to pay Swen off in a tax called the Dane Gold. Now, the goal here is like, I am just going to be such a thorn in your side, you are going to pay me at least. And this works for a time.
Okay, like, right. But tensions reach an absolute breaking point when Athelrad hoping to rid the England of Danish, Danish settlers because he’s told that like in order to keep the people safe, the Danes can’t be here. He orders the saints Bryce’s Day massacre. Are you familiar with this? I am because of the show.
Okay. For those that are playing at home, the Saint Bryce’s Day massacre takes place on November 13, 1002. And this is the general slaughter of all the Danes in England. Among them are Swen’s own sister Gunhild. So he is pissed.
Theresa: Yeah, that’s you don’t kick the hornet’s nest and then expect to walk out.
Angie: Yeah, like, anyway, exactly. So he is like not just only thinking, Hey, we can do something with England, like we can we can we can rule this. I need food.
He is also like this man has got to go. My sister was just trying to live her life. Right. So he launches this like, devastating invasion starting in 1003. And after years of relentless raids, he launched a full scale invasion in 1013.
That’s when commute rolls up when he’s a teenager, right. And the English Earl’s all but abandoned as a red and they declare senting. Now, unfortunately, his reign only lasts a few weeks. He dies suddenly and never is officially crowned. He did. Sickness. Or from falling off a horse or and this is my favorite one, the ghost of Saint Edmund came back to murder him in his sleep.
Theresa: Thank you. There’s ghosts in your blood. You should do some cocaine about it.
Angie: Exactly. When I I was like, you know what, because this story gives me the same energy as salad and for how many people had to die to get him in place. And I was like, wonder how he died. Oh, I wonder how he died. Oh, I wonder how ghosts did it. Okay, that’s new.
So take your pick. I think he fell off a horse. I think he was injured, got sick and never recovered.
I think it’s a combination of the two, right? However, doesn’t die before arranging a political alliance otherwise known as a marriage. With the intention of securing loyalty of the English Midlands, the lucky lady is called Elgafu of Northampton and she is to marry Canute. Okay, who is roughly between 16 and 18 years old at this time.
And the marriage takes place between 1013 and 1014 and they immediately have a couple of kids. They’re going to want to remember Harold Harefoot. He’s going to come back later. Now, with the desert is father, Canute is the man in charge, but there is a bit of this like power pool on the part of Aethelred because he thinks he can gain enough support to get the kingdom back. Despite the fact that the Earl’s pretty much abandoned him earlier, right? He thinks he can he can make this work. Now Canute sees all this and he gets he’s like, we got to go.
Like I can’t deal with this guy if I don’t have more resources, more men and more time. So, this just makes sense to me. Right. So, Canute goes home to gather these resources that he needs, but while he’s not in England holding things down, for lack of a better way to describe this, Aethelred goes ham on the areas of Danish settlements that are called the Dane loss. There’s more to it, but the gist is he destroys it. And this is after he has already promised to be a more just leader and forgive those who had submitted under the Viking domination. So, I’m just going to go back on my word. Right.
Theresa: Yeah. I mean, I just said it today and so I don’t even like it. It doesn’t count. Right. Okay.
Angie: So, this isn’t fitting well, you can imagine with the locals. And often the distance, Canute can be seen returning in 1015 and he arrives totally renewed. He’s got new strength. He’s got 10,000 men, many of whom are mercenaries. And it does not take long for Canute to successfully conquer the country. It’s about 14 months.
Theresa: You know, and that’s breakneck speed considering what they have available to him. Yeah. Right.
Angie: Now, in this 14 months, Canute has this like constant thorn in his side. It’s the young man called Edmund Ironside, and he’s Aethelred’s son, but the victory is all Canute’s in the end. On April 23rd, 1016, Aethelred passes away and this leaves in his mind Edmund Ironside’s king. Because, right, he’s the son. This makes sense.
Theresa: Yeah. This is strictly to me. I inherited it from Dad.
Angie: Right. And Canute’s like, oh, did you? Because I’m here. And after a series of military conflicts, Edmund Ironside and Canute agreed to partition England following Edmund’s defeat at the Battle of Azadun. Basically, what’s going to happen is Edmund’s going to retain Wessex, while Canute controls the rest. And then there’s this understanding that whoever dies, like, if Canute dies first, Edmund gets the rest. If Edmund dies first, Canute gets to take Wessex in as well.
Like, that’s the agreement that they come to and they seem to be okay with it. Now, this doesn’t take long. Edmund dies on November 30th at 1016. Oh, six months later. Right? Dang. And Canute’s like, right then.
The whole thing’s mine. He is crowned king at Christmas the same year. He’s already secured the support of the Witten. And the Witten for those playing at home is like the, for lack of a better word, like the Privy Council.
This is like all the elders, the nobles of influence that have sway. He’s our, so Canute’s already gained their support. So kind of in the bag for him.
He’s crowned the king of England, and then he sets his eyes on something that’s going to consolidate his power even more. What do you think that is? I don’t know. France? Emma of Normandy. Okay. Now, let’s take a quick step back really quick, because you might be thinking Canute is already married. What is, what is he doing?
Theresa: When has that stopped anybody? That’s a ruler. Look at it, you Henry VIII.
Angie: So in North Society is not uncommon for men of higher ranking to have more than one wife. Typically, your average, your average North men is going to have his wife and that’s that, but the higher, the higher up in Society go, the more likely that there’s more than one running around.
It’s fairly common for them. And his first wife is literally doing her thing. Like she’s got two sons by him.
And when everything had gone sideways and Swin Forkbeard had died, her and her eldest baby are sent to Denmark, like as the escort for Swin Body. Shortly after writing there, she’s going to bear to do a second son. And at this time, she is likely given an area to control while her sons are growing up.
So effectively, this sort of makes her like a regent, right? So, Okafoo’s like doing her thing. And I’m not even going to get into it, but she’s doing her thing. And I really hate how like, I think if Vikings Vahala sort of villainizes her, because she’s literally just, that’s what Society calls for her. She’s just doing her job. And I think that the two women that played both of those characters nailed it. But anyway, Okafoo’s doing her thing.
Now we zoom back in. He wants to marry Emma because she just also happens to be as the unready, unready widow. And she is Emma of Normandy. So, this looks great for Commute, because up to this point, Normandy has been a bit of a staging ground or believed to have been a bit of a staging ground since at least Rolo, right? Because Rolo comes in and gets Normandy. Like it’s long story short, he is given Normandy as his like holding.
And he is Emma’s like great grandfather. So, Viking presence there has been very real for a very long time. And they believe that Vikings are maybe stopping off in Normandy on the way to continue their quest to England.
So, it’s like super efficient for him to have Normandy as well. Now, she marries him, Emma marries him like, as we assume willingly, like she kind of is in the right place and time. And in very quick succession gives him two children, Harth Canute, and their daughter called Gunilda.
Now, my dad does get a little bit dicey here. And he has a young man called Edwig Atheling, killed because he is Israel’s other son. So, this pretty much eliminates any threats to the crown at this point.
Theresa: You’ve got to keep the bloodline going. Yeah, okay. Right.
Angie: So, that’s a little bit sketchy right there. But you know, here we are. Now, Emma, for her part, she already does have two children, two sons, with their children ready, like living children. You have Alfred Atheling and Edward the Confessor, and they’re basically forced into exile. So are Edmund Ironside’s sons. None of these boys seem real happy about the situation. But I know this action sort of shores up kind of the line of succession and the crown for Canute.
We’re going to come back to that in just a little bit. But the basic just is he takes all these steps in order to ensure that nothing is going anywhere anytime soon. So, he devouts. Now, he is fully the King of England, doing his King stuff.
And he shores up the military. He holds a meeting in Oxford creating these agreements that the English and the Danes are now officially going to live in peace. And he does this using the governing laws of King Edward, Edgar the Peaceful, who had ruled England from 959 to his death in 975. Now, King Edgar, in my opinion, was like a really cool dude, but so unheard of. And Canute’s like looking at his policy in the way that he ruled England when he was alive and thinking, Holy crap, he’s got it.
Very few men have the Peaceful in their name. We should probably follow that, that understanding and make it work. And so he does.
Like that’s his plan. But then, in 1018, so he’s been the King now for like two years, right? He gets word that his brother died. And this leaves Canute the chance to also claim the Danish throne, which he does. And in so doing, he becomes the first English King to spend a great deal of time outside of England.
Interesting. He could have to go to Denmark to get your game thrown. One of the first things he does is he declares his son with Emma, Harthic Newt, the Crown Prince of Denmark. A man called Olaf Darl will act as the regent. And then by 1028, he controls, he gains control of Norway. And he has thus created and is now providing over this vast area called the North Sea Empire, which was basically his grandfather’s goal. And Canute’s like, you got it.
Done. And this works really, really well for him. He doesn’t really need a centralized base because he’s got royal regents everywhere. And by this point, England sort of handles its own business.
Now, regardless of all of that, he does establish a base of government in Wessex. And he’s rewarding key allies. He’s dealing with scheming allies that turn toe and do different things kind of in pretty dramatic ways.
Because the trail is the trail and for Canute, like if you could betray the other guy, what’s going to stop you from betraying me? Yep. Right.
So he doesn’t pretty normally step in that moment. But despite his like ruthless handling of his rivals, he gradually establishes a more stable rule that allows both the Saxon and the Viking communities to coexist, which is pretty freaking astronomical when you think about all the warfare up to this point. We couldn’t be nice to each other to save our lives.
And he’s like, actually, yeah, we can because we’re not that different. And let me tell you why. Right. Now, he, because he can get these communities to coexist, he comes to be viewed very positively by all the people in the area.
He’s got these close ties to the church, his adoption of the laws of King Edward and his efforts to strengthen their currency, like pay dividends to the instigree for him, because he is putting a stability in place that has been lacking for years. Okay, this makes sense. Right. And the people are loving it. One of the things he does to further cement his rule and like the unification of the vast empire is to promote Christianity throughout the whole thing.
He is considered the first Viking leader to be acknowledged by the Pope as a Christian king. Wow. It’s kind of a big deal. He then takes it one step further by making a pilgrimage to Rome to demonstrate his faith and to witness the coronation of the Holy Roman Emperor Conrad II.
By the time he’s on his way home from this pilgrimage, he is able to refer to himself as quote, King of all England, Denmark and the Norwegians and some of the Swedes, which I think is like, I love that you have to add that for yourself. I got some of the seeds too. That’s not true.
Theresa: I love how he’s spreading it out though. He’s not just saying firstborn gets everything. No.
Angie: And that was his plan from the very beginning. It’s really, it’s sort of kind of crap that Emma’s first sons got shipped off to Normandy and were kind of left there. But I think Canute was looking at this in the long game, which is something that I don’t think his father or his grandfather did before him and was like, how do we separate after I die?
Like how do we keep consolidated power and keep the governments and the countries running smoothly after I die? And unfortunately for him, he didn’t have like a super long reign, right? Like he got there at 16 was dead by 4045. So 20 years, right?
Give or take. And I just keep, I always think to myself like, what more could he have accomplished if he lived longer? Like how much more could he have solidified and unified things if he had lived longer? Because his sons are obviously sons and do doke it out a little bit for the remaining control, right? Now, despite the fact that he is a Viking warrior and a dramatic one at that, his reign brings unity and stability to his kingdom resulting in a fairly peaceful rule, at least for the everyday folks. He repairs the churches in the monastery that had been damaged during his and other previous raids. That’s super cool. I broke it. I should probably fix it.
Theresa: My bad. I’ll get you a new face.
Angie: Yeah. He’s partly to thank for the shires and the layout of England being divided into the four major oral bones. We have like West Exmercia, East Anglia, Northumbria. And there’s this effective governing thanks to the old King Edgar that he imitates. And like the stuff he puts into place is still super relevant today for being a king that is very little unknown in the grand scheme of things.
Because I think in my opinion, when you think back to that time, Emma of Normandy is the bigger celebrity character than he was. But like, big daddy can use his hand when he’s business. I love that for him. And there’s this like really fun and enduring like myth about his last time that was brought to us by a 12th century chronicler called Harriet Huntington, which basically says that Canoe once commanded the tide to halt its advance to demonstrate the limits of royal power. He takes us through into the water’s edge. He sets it down and commands the tide to stop. The tide does not stop and ignores his command and gets him wet. He then takes his crown and hangs it on the crucifix declaring that only God has supreme authority.
And I love that it shows his humility like, yo, I’m just a guy. I cannot tell this to stop, but I can do XYZ thing. And we need to handle our business. Put it put it where it goes. So that’s the story of big daddy can use. And yes, my whole house knows him as big daddy can you because I talk about can you all the time.
Theresa: Yeah, that’s it. That’s incredible. And now I understand because whole time I was like, how do we get to Father’s Day from this
Angie: big daddy can you the father of England in my opinion?
Theresa: Uh, limies come at her. Take your thing. Yeah, okay. Attack mine.
Angie: Because here’s the thing. He’s only 30 years away from the fall of the Viking Age anyway when Hera had draw to take his death at Samper Bridge in the battle leading up to battle facing. So there you have it. He just happened to be one of the coolest Viking was England.
Theresa: I love that. I love that. And the only information I had was from the Viking shows and I didn’t necessarily retain much of it.
Angie: I will tell you the one bit that I wanted to be so true. And it’s probably the reason I got obsessed with canoes in the first place was there is a scene. I can’t remember what episode it was.
This is so long ago that I watched it, but there’s a scene when he comes to see the pope and he brings the pope like the heart of the pope’s enemy and the pope’s like, we’re friends now. That’s so awesome. That actually did not happen. I have spent like probably the last three years trying to confirm whether or not there’s like some secret story about maybe that did happen.
Theresa: You know, what you don’t realize is in the Vatican archives, there is the heart.
Angie: Which we will never see because unless we figure out how to break
Theresa: in some cardinal who will never hear this episode is listening to this episode in my fictitious mind and giggling as they stare right at it and check that it’s still an inventory.
Angie: It’s got like a little little sticker note on it that’s like, can you brought this?
Theresa: Well, yeah, I mean, I’m going to sit and go present scan scan. I mean, because it’s a digital age. Hey, probably right. There’s a spreadsheet somewhere for this.
Angie: Oh, I would love to see that spreadsheet.
Theresa: If you too would love to see this spreadsheet, you’re thinking a hot damn what a wild windup. Right review, subscribe, send this to somebody who also wants to see the spreadsheet. And on that note, goodbye.
Speaker 3: Bye.
Unhinged History 
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