Listen to the episode here.

This week, Angie and Theresa share a secret mind-meld, and both tell seafaring stories.

Theresa kicks things off by telling the story of Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry. Oliver Perry is the brother of Commodore Matthew Perry, who has been involved in several episodes. It’s Oliver Perry who would fight in the naval battle of Lake Erie, in the War of 1812, and raise a flag saying, “Don’t Give Up the Ship.”

Angie keeps the nautical theme going with the tale of Gráinne O’Malley, aka Grace O’Malley, the pirate queen herself. Gráinne is born to Irish chieftains, well-educated, and thrives on the water. This combination would make her quite the pain in the arse for the English.

This story pairs well with:
Nakahama Manjiro aka John Mung (one of the times Matthew Perry appears)
Jeanne de Clisson

Transcript

Angie: Uh 

Theresa: hi and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast, the podcast where two compulsive nut jobs are going to mainline history stories and then turn around and go, oh my gosh, this story connects to a hundred different points. And then we’re going to join forces and tell each other the story we’ve only recently learned. I’m host one. I’m Teresa. And that is host two. I’m Angie. 

Angie: And I love that all of the stories somehow connect to each other. Do you get asked at dinner parties that random questions that you’re like, oh, hey, so did you know? That are not related, but they are. Yeah. 

Theresa: Like, stay with me. Husband said when I when we first started dating that I tell stories in circles. Yeah. That’s what you’re supposed to do. 

Angie: Our didn’t understand what’s going on. 

Theresa: He would just be shocked and amazed when he’s like, wait a minute, relevance is coming. It’s coming. Ah, there it is. Look at that. 

Angie: See how it matches. Did you know that you go first today? 

Theresa: I do. I do go first. Um I’m going to give a hat tip to TikTok listener named Chauncey. Chauncey. Derailed me. I had a different story planned for this week, but he said something, and I was like, wait, what? No. So I’m going to tell you the story of Commodore Perry and the Battle of Lake Erie. 

Angie: Matthew Sorry. Matthew Perry. 

Theresa: Here’s where I buried the lead. 

Angie: My sources. Naval History and Heritage Command, Oliver Hazard Perry, Grassroots Summit.net, Christopher Raymond Perry, the father of the Commodores. Shores and Island.com. Don’t give up the ship. The Life of Oliver Hazard Perry by Brian Schifflet. 

National Park Service. We all knew it was coming. The Battle of Lake Erie, War of 1812, and Open Water Pedia Commodore Matthew Perry. Is there more than one? Commodore Perry. It’s a band. Is it a boy band? 

Theresa: It’s basically, yeah, basically the the the Commodore Perry’s uh were a thing that I didn’t know was going to be in my life. 

Angie: It’s like the Jackson Five of Commodores. 

Theresa: Yeah, yeah. 

Angie: I love this so much. When you hear like I’ll be quiet now. 

Theresa: Naval family. This is what you need to be thinking of. 

Angie: Okay. I love this. For all you pet for all you new listeners or just tuning into this episode, Commodore Perry is a re reappearing uh reappearing guest star on this podcast. Yeah. Thanks to Teresa. 

Theresa: Matthew Perry has been on this podcast many, many times. And not friends, Matthew Perry. Arms dealing, Matthew Perry. 

Angie: Don’t worry, we’ll specify that in the TikToks. So head with me. 

Theresa: 18 or so. We’re going to 1785, August 23rd. Okay. And this is uh South Kingston, Rhode Island. We’re going to actually let me back up a little bit first. Okay. I you know what? I’m going, I’m going back and forth, right? 

I’m going back and forth. So the story we’re going to tell is about Oliver Hazard Perry. That is a hell of a name. 

Hazard being a middle name. And I get to how we get there. I get to how we get there. 

I love this. Um, so first off, Oliver Hazard Perry is born to Christopher Raymond and Sarah Alexander Perry. He’s the first son. And he’s named after his paternal grandmother’s father, Oliver Hazard. 

Angie: Love it. So not only is it his actual name, it is a family name. 

Theresa: It is a family name. It’s not like it’s like, well, Oliver seems too soft. Uh what about revenge? No, not Oliver Revenge. Uh Oliver Hazard. That flows. Here we go. 

Angie: Ethan’s gonna be pissed when he finds out that I didn’t let him middle name himself Danger. 

Theresa: You know, once he’s now that he’s 18, he can change it. 

Angie: I actually told him that. I’m like, hey, you’re 18 now. You could be Ethan Danger Craig. He was like, yeah, thanks. Moved on with his life. 

Theresa: Now I should tell you about Oliver Hazard. Um he’s so Oliver Hazard, paternal grandmother’s father, or great grandfather, if you will, but also his uncle, Oliver Hazard Perry. Now. So there was already an Oliver Hazard Perry. 

Angie: So there’s an Oliver Hazard Perry and Oliver Hazard Perry Jr. and an Oliver Hazard Perry the third. So Oliver Hazard. we’re not in row. 

Theresa: Yeah, Oliver Hazzard, first name, last name. Oliver Hazard Perry, uncle. So not direct line. But the original Oliver Hazard Perry was lost at sea. So when Oliver Hazard Perry is born, they’re like, well, we’ll name him after dear great grandpapa and uncle. Got it. All right. But before we go further into the hazard, I need to delve into Father Dearest. Christopher Raymond Perry. 

Okay, let’s go. Because I feel so I learned so much about why Matthew Perry would be arms dealing with Matthew Perry and involved in so much once I heard about Father. 

Angie: I’m not gonna be able to take this story seriously, am I? No. 

Theresa: No, you won’t. So when Christopher Raymond is 15, he stands before his dad. Dad is a Quaker judge, and he tells his dad he wants to fight in the revolution. Okay. Need I remind you the Quakers are pacifist. 

Angie: This is typically not what you find a Quaker doodling, but all right. 

Theresa: Yep. And so he gets off somehow. Quaker dad goes, Glory be. Go with God. Have fun. Um, so he gets off on a less than honorable start because in 1777, mind you, this kid is 15 going to war. 

Okay. There is a neighboring Quaker named Simon Tucker, or Simeon Tucker. Um Simeon Tucker gets shot by a firing squad because he’s refusing to pay war taxes, and he doesn’t want to support the war effort by donating cattle from his herd. 

Angie: Because he’s a fascist. Good for him. Hold your ground. 

Theresa: So there’s a little bit of disagreement here, but it’s believed that Perry’s rifle is the only one that shot and killed Simeon. Everybody else in the firing squad heard the soft command to fire over Simeon’s head. 

Because they just wanted to scare him. Oh. And so Christopher Raymond just let a rip. Right. He’s never punished for the killing. And he soon is signed aboard a privateer vessel. And this is where he begins his career on the high seas. 

Angie: This is the son, right? The son that said I’m going to the city. 

Theresa: This is the dad. This is the dad. Okay. The dad is in the revolution. 

Angie: Oh, okay. So I’m sorry, I was confused. I thought he went to his his dad and said I’m going to go fight the revolution, and dad was the one that shot Simeon. 

Theresa: So Christopher Raymond Perry, 15 year old, wants to fight in the revolution. A 15-year-old shoots the other Quaker. 

Angie: Shoots. Okay, I got it. And then gets put on the privateer vessel. Got it. Sorry. 

Theresa: No, you’re fine. I just got so excited at the very beginning, I didn’t draw clear lines. Got it. Now. So he’s he’s on this privateer ship, and this is during the Revolutionary War, he gets captured by the British. He gets captured a couple of times. 

He he breaks away the first time. And uh he serves some prison time aboard a lonesome ship, like a loathsome ship in Jersey in New York Harbor. And after he escapes, he boards another privateer ship to fight the British. He gets captured again. 

Angie: That’s unfortunate. 

Theresa: This time he shipped off to Ireland. Okay. Bro escapes, and uh he meets this hot young lady. As you do. But he leaves her and he re he hightails it back to the colonies because he’s got a war to fight, and he is an honorable 15-year-old. 

Appreciate it. When the war is over, he returns to Ireland, finds her and takes his back to the new country as his due his brand new bride. Good for him. And this is how Christopher Raymond Perry met and married his wife, and they would give birth to the first Commodore, Oliver Hazard Perry. So excited. So now they have their first kid, Oliver Hazzard, and when Hazard’s 13, he joins the Navy and is stationed on his father’s boat. 

Okay. Now, he was a he was signed as a warranted midshipman in the U.S. Navy on April 7th, 1799. And he goes on to serve under this command. The General Green made two cruises to the Caribbean under Captain Perry’s command. They end up recapturing two ships from the British because this is in something you covered. 

Captain Perry is participating in the War of the South by assisting Toussaint Louis Vur. My guy. Yep. So for the the Haitian Revolution, Captain Perry is there with his son, Oliver Hazard Perry. 

Angie: This guy is everywhere. These Perrys be out and about. 

Theresa: What episode was the Haitian Revolution? 

Angie: Give me a minute and I’ll find it while you chat. Okay. 

Theresa: So over the next six years, he participated, we’re we’re talking um, we’re we’re shifting focus to Oliver Hazard. Uh he participated in the quasi war in France and the Triple H. Go ahead. Tripoli. Nope. 

Angie: It’s Episode 109. 

Theresa: Episode 109 was the Haitian War. So the triple warrant against the Barbary Pirates. 

Angie: That is an awesome going away party. Yeah, yeah. Makes a ton of sense out of context. 

Theresa: So Perry, he he fights he fights against the Barbary Pirates. Um he also goes on to serve on some ships that were famous back in the day. The Adams, the con the Constellation, the Nautilus, the Exus, nope, the Essex, and the Constitution. But he’s not necessarily involved in a ton of memorable gate engagements or um in those little known wars. So just kind of there on the outskirts, earning his chops. But fast forward to 1807, when at a dance, Oliver Hazard Perry meets Christopher nope, meets Elizabeth Chaplin Mason of Newport, and they begin courting. Oh so he finds love. 

And he has kind of an extended leave during this period, and after it, he starts to superintend the construction of a fatilla of small gunboats in Rhode Island and Connecticut. He hates this. This is not fun because this is some real menial drudgery of work. Okay. 

Angie: I mean, when you’ve seen some battle, I imagine that just watching stuff get built is boring as hell. Yep. 

Theresa: So April 1809, he gets his first sea going command. He’s going to be on the 14 gun schooner called the Revenge. Yes. Which is a damn good name for a boat. Not even the first revenge boat we’ve had on this podcast. 

Angie: No, Queen Anne’s Revenge. 

Theresa: Well, there’s Queen Anne’s Revenge. Then we have the Lioness of Brittany. Her boat was called the Revenge. 

Angie: I think it’s a good name for a boat. 

Theresa: It’s a great name. Um I should mention that in 1809, uh, he’s got a younger brother who’s 15 years old, and this is where Matthew fucking Perry receives a midshipman’s commission in the Navy and is put under the command of his elder brother on the USS Revenge. 

Angie: I’ll never get over him. Your Okay. 

Theresa: Like their family has a penchant of being not through puberty and joining the Navy. Get him. 

Angie: When you got a war to fight, you got a war to fight. 

Theresa: I mean, honestly, the concept to me, like my inside my my monologue was like, it’s too late. I mean, that’s that’s a little different for this family. You know, they’re joining before puberty has concluded, but still going. Um during the winter and summer of 1809, Revenge patrolled the northern waters as part of the squadron under Commodore John Rogers, and then in the spring of 1810, Perry’s ship is ordered to the Washington Navy Yard for repairs as a preparatory assignment to the southern waters. 

So they they’re gonna go some places, right? June 1810, they’re en route to Charleston, South Carolina, and this is where the revenge loses some spars uh and suffers some considerable damage it during the severe storm that they start to battle. As this is going on, Perry is plagued by an illness that I wasn’t able to uncover. And his time on the Revenge ends abruptly when January 8th, 1811, they’re uh conducting a survey of several harbors there along the southern New England coast, and they end up kind of strucking a a reef near Watch Hill Point, and it goes down. Oof. Now, if you are in charge of a boat that goes down, there is an obligatory court martial that exonerated Perry, but it blamed the the vessel’s loss on the pilot. That sucks. 

Yeah. So after the court martial, Oliver Hazard Perry, he gets an extended leave of absence, and on May 5th, 1811, he gets married to Elizabeth Mason. Love this. And they would end up having five kids. Only one would pass away in infancy. 

Angie: So four four make it. Four out of five. In that time frame, I’m considering that a win. 

Theresa: That’s an incredible win. Now, um, mind you, 1811, June 18th of 1812, Great War. Nope, Great Britain declares war. So the war of 1812 kicks off, and Perry’s assigned to command a squadron of tiny gunboats in Newport. He he also doesn’t like this position either, because this is insignificant as far as he’s concerned. 

Angie: Is his beef Newport? I’m feeling like his beef is Newport. 

Theresa: Newport is where his new wife is, so you think that he would be thrilled about that aspect. 

Angie: Yeah, I guess that’s true, huh? All right. 

Theresa: But uh he wants a post at sea. He wants to see some action. And so for the next few months, he’s got friends of his that are on sleek vessels like the Constitution, the United States, and the Hornet, and he kind of thinks he’s being left in the backwater. He doesn’t like it. 

But he does get promotion to Master Commodant on October 16th of that year. And this is where he reaches out to his old friend, Isaac Chauncey, and Chauncey on TikTok. If you’re listening to this, I bet you didn’t realize you were going to appear in the story again. And it’s Isaac Chauncey who then commanded naval operations on the Great Lakes. And this timing is just fortuitous because Chauncey is in need of an experienced officer for the fratella that’s under construction on Lake Erie, and our dude has the ability to oversee construction, and this is going to be an entire flotilla. 

Okay. So Perry takes his little brother and they skedaddle on over. To Lake Erie. To Lake Erie. Which massive body of water. I’ve never been. I hear everybody talk about how big it is, though. 

Angie: I understand you can fit the whole of Britain in it. Suck it, Britain. 

Theresa: Um, Now, we’re gonna fast forward a tiny bit. September 10th, 1813. The United States Navy has a lookout and they spot six British vessels in the northwest of Put in Bay, and this is just beyond a place called Rattlesnake Island. So immediately, Master Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry, he’s issuing a ton of orders, and he’s going to make preparations to engage the British in a naval battle. Let’s go. Now, I need I could show you a map. 

I don’t know if it made much sense to me, so I didn’t include it. Just for background, the British have controlled Lake Erie for a while now, and they get all their supplies from across the Atlantic. They have a really large long insta-cart delivery time. Now, for them to get their grocery run, they have to sail past Put in Bay. 

So Perry has his fleet on Lake Erie, and he knows that with him there blocking the British, they either have to fight or abandon their post. Nice. Okay. He has the ability to sever their supply route. Good for him. 

And this is what he’s up against because this is what’s on the on the table for him. So his fleet is light or has he’s got more ships, but he’s got less guns. He’s got these things called short-range caron carronades. Now, Barkley, the con the guy commanding the British fleet, he’s got fewer ships but longer range cannon. 

Angie: So they’re kind of evenly matched in their uh fewer and longer, shorter and more. Right. Yeah. 

Theresa: So Perry needs to needs the wind at his back to close the distance and use his firepower advantage. And it’s on the morning of September 10th that he gets it. Before the fight, he ends up raising a flag that reads, don’t give up the ship. And this is the dying words of his friend from a previous battle. Oh. 

Okay. But this this battle flag ends up being one thing that gets everybody rallied around. It hits everybody in the field. Like, yeah, we’re gonna honor the last guy because we’re not gonna give up the ship. Coincidentally, it was uh Chauncey seeing that flag and asking a local, what is that flag then? They’re like, oh, it’s because of Commodore Perry. He’s like, I must tell Teresa. 

Angie: I Love that. 

Theresa: So he didn’t realize it was a different Commodore Perry, but I am nonetheless delighted. 

Angie: So well, it’s the the same family of Commodore Perry’s. Yeah, same bloodline. So it works. 

Theresa: Now, back to they’ve just raised the flag. The British have opened fire because they’re at long range. This is what their guns are designed for. They are bombarding Perry’s flagship before he can close in. And he expects his second in command to bring the other brig, this big ship to help. But that ship kind of held back. Uh they’re staying out of range. 

Uh reasons are still debated. Uh, but after taking 40 per the so as the big brig is like holding itself back, they have basically 40% of the gunpower. But they’re just sitting back deuces for two hours while Commodore Perry’s boat is getting hammered. 

Angie: This sounds like a beef. 

Theresa: Yeah, yeah. Um basically they’re gonna end up having fights over that for decades after. Like it’s on site any time they’re they’re in a bar. The British are just aiming everything they can at Perry’s flagship, and they reduced it to a wreck. So rather than surrender, Perry roll like rode through the gunfire to an another undamaged brig, took command and then sailed it straight into the British line. 

Sometimes that’s what you gotta do. I mean, just that is an insane visual to me. Now the British by this point had lost most of their senior officers to wounds, including Barclay, the commander himself. So now they’re trying to reposition themselves under inexperienced replacement commanders, and two of their largest strip of their largest ships collided and then got tangled together. And Perry drove his fresh ship straight through the gap, firing on both sides at once. Fire everything. Full send. 

Mm-hmm. Now the wind finally let his smaller, slower boats that were dragging behind because he couldn’t they just couldn’t keep up. They finally catch up and they start just dogpiling on. 

Okay. Within an hour or within the hour after that, I I think it was a couple hour fight. Uh the entire British fleet had surrendered or been run down and captured. Get um Perry’s after battle report. We have met the enemy and they are ours. 

Angie: Stick that up there with Anderson’s Wassens battle report. 

Theresa: Landed, killed Germans, fucked off. Mm-hmm. 

Angie: Same same feeling. 

Theresa: Same energy, less wearing. Uh Perry’s little one-liner became the most quoted line of the war. Nice. Good arm. The wind gave America control of Lake Erie and pushed the British into a retreat and helped secure Ohio and Michigan as U.S. territory when peace talks came. That’s awful. 

Which I was just like, holy cow. Now, shortly after the battle, Commodore Perry, he requested transfer back to Rhode Island. November of 1813, he resumed his duties as the with the gunboat fotilla in Newport. 

However, this promotion to captain dated September 10th of 1813 and his elevated status with the Naval Department and the country assured them to be a temporary assignment. Okay. Because he doesn’t want to be there. Remember, our our guy likes Laurie. 

Angie: Yeah, he’s not about staying where flotillas are built. 

Theresa: Yeah, like he wants to see his wife long enough to crank out a kid and then he wants to go and come back when the kid’s there and can walk and talk and then do it again. Yeah. So July of 1814, Perry’s offered a posting commiserate with his new rank, and it’s the command of the Java, which is a new 44 gun frigate under construction in Baltimore. 

Angie: Okay. That’s a that’s a proper ship. 

Theresa: It sounds incredible, and I’m not saying that just because I love coffee. Now he’s engaged in fitting out the the Java, and he participates in the defense of both Washington and Baltimore during the late summer British invasion of Chesapeake Bay, or of that region at least. And it would be these land engagements that would be Perry’s swan song, peace gets declared before the new captain gets his new ship out to sea. 

So he doesn’t get to play with his new toy. The Java crews to the Mediterranean in 1815 and continue to help quell some problems with the Barbary pirates they were facing. And while it’s anchored in Naples, there seems to be some kind of incident that in my notes I just vote, what happened? Where Perry slaps Java’s Marine Officer John Heath. Okay. Sometimes you gotta slap a bitch, you know? I mean, and he Heath caught the hazard. 

Angie: Both Perry and Heath are court-martialed. They’re found guilty, but they only receive mild reprimands. Okay. So I just feel mild reprimands and court-martial don’t make sense to me. I just assume court-martialed is a massive thing, but apparently not. 

Angie: Well, I mean, Tordens Gold got court-martialed, exonerated, and then got her back promotion. So I think it’s just a formality. Yeah. 

Theresa: Um after Java returned to home waters, Heath challenged Perry to a duel, and the duel is fought on October 19th of 1817. It’s on the exact same field where Aaron Burr killed Alexander Hamilton. Oh my God. The Marine vibe. Isn’t it just sacred ground? Um the Marine fired first from four paces and missed, honor satisfied, and Perry refused to pull the trigger. 

Hmm. Now, this is where uh it’s during the same period. He gets himself entangled once again with an old nemesis from Lake Erie. 

There’s a dude named Jesse Duncan Elliott. And there’s an exchange of letters that aren’t the best. They tend to be labeled as acrimonious. Uh, and Elliot challenged Perry to a duel. Perry declines, honor notwithstanding, and instead he decided once and for all to lay the repugnant business to rest by filing formal court martial charges against Elliot. 

Angie: Okay, listen, we don’t have to duel, but we’re gonna sit in court, so yeah. Bring your lawyers. Mm-hmm. I’m here for it. 

Theresa: Now, it’s the Secretary of the Navy that dismisses Perry’s charges. Both officers have great connections, and the secretary doesn’t want to open the can of worms and see the scandal that’s going to happen. 

Fair. Not to mention this is going to cause a huge divide because everybody’s got friends in high places, and um it’s going to be a big sordid affair. So rather than make a decision, the secretary abdicated responsibility and passed the charges directly to President James Monroe. So it escalates. Listen. 

Angie: Yeah, just take it up to the management. 

Theresa: Monroe, he decides he’s going to defuse the quarreling. And uh he decides. So my notes are it says unwilling to expose the Navy or the country to what he envisioned as a dileterious encounter for all concern. He opted to suppress the whole matter. And basically just kind of sweeps it all under the rug. But Perry’s not happy about this. 

Angie: I wouldn’t be either if I was the one that put the charges out in the first place. 

Theresa: And you see it go all the way up to the office of the president, you’re like, that’s right. Look who’s got my side now. Yeah. It’s a president nobody talks about. Monroe. 

Angie: Got a great last name, but that’s all he’s got going for him right now. 

Theresa: So Monroe decides to uh distract our young hero, and he selects Perry to preside over an important diplomatic mission in South America. Okay. Which honestly, yeah. I do the same thing with with my husband and child. A little bit of little bit of, hey, look, a sanction. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. So Perry uh set sail on board the U.S. frigate John Adams on June 1819 and arrived to the mouth of the Orinoco River on July 15th. 

And from there, he transferred his flag to a ship. I’m not making this up, named non-such. Okay. I feel like we kind of ran out of names. 

This is why we shouldn’t let the whites name things because you end up with non such. You know. And Bodie McBoat face. Yeah. I mean, at least that one’s funny. But non such takes this route, gets them all the way to the capital of Venezuela, and that’s where there’s a yellow fever outbreak that’s going on. 

Oh no. So they arrive at the Capitol July 27th, and Perry maintained quarters ashore during the next two and a half weeks. While the Commodore managed to maintain his own health, twenty of the non such crewmen at uh got yellow fever, five of which pass away. But he successfully completes his mission, rejoins the non such, and he’s confident that he escaped the fever and is anxious to get back to the fresh breezes at Port of Spain and Trinidad. But it’s on August 15th, it’s Sunday, the schooner drops anchor and rapidly floated on downstream on the current. Two days later, Perry woke up at 4 a.m. with chills and a fever, and his condition just continues to go downhill in a handbasket. 

The crew of the non such frantically pushed themselves to reach Port of Spain, but it fell short by a few miles because at 3 p.m. August 23rd, 1819, on his 34th birthday, Oliver Hazard Perry died of yellow fever. 

Angie: Hell of a way to go for a life like that. 

Theresa: I mean, he was not going to die of old age. Hate that for him. I love him. But yeah, that’s the story of Oliver Hazard Perry. 

Angie: Thank you for telling me the story of another Commodore Perry. 

Theresa: I mean, I think it’s any excuse to say Matthew’s name. Honestly. 

Angie: At least he lives on an in infamy for us, you know. Truly. Yeah. I’m here for it. I am not going to say it too drastic of a turn. I also am telling a naval story. Oh. Hmm. Um, that said, I am firmly stepping into one of your great loves, but once I get into it, I think you will forgive me and see how it could also be firmly in my wheelhouse as well. 

Theresa: It’s just like when I told the story of the last samurai. 

Angie: Yeah, kinda, yeah. Uh without further ado, I’m gonna tell you the story of Grania Nawya or Grace O’Malley, the pirate. Are you excited? 

Theresa: I am. She was not on my list, but she was one of those that should have been written down. 

Angie: She’s been on my list for a hot minute, and um Ian and I were were saying something about her recently, and he was like, I’m shocked you haven’t done her. And I was like, Well, she’s kind of known as a pirate queen, and he goes, but she is an Irish pirate queen. 

So I was like, I think she could forgive me this one time. Um that said, uh Grace is her Anglicized name. She probably would have never gone by that in her own time frame. My sources Grace O’Malley, the biography from EBSCO. I looked it up. 

Theresa: You looked up how to say it because you were tired of me kind of raising an eyebrow every time you did. EBSCO. E. BB. 

Angie: Like that’s how that’s the phonetic spelling by C Coljsky. Um, the National Maritime Museum of Ireland has like a really cute little write-up on her. The Royal Museums of Greenwich has a fact and fiction pirate histories page for Grace O’Malley. There is a really great Netflix documentary on her called Pirates Behind the Legends. She has one whole episode. And then um, there’s an author called Ann Chambers, and from everything I could tell, Ann Chambers seems to be like the foremost expert on Granny O’Malley. In fact, she wrote her biography. 

I think the first one came out more than 20 years ago now, and there have been 11 editions since then. Whoa. Like this woman has put her life into learning the life of Granny O’Malley. So I watched her videos like a couple different times. 

There she also provides a um website that has like the full timeline in really short sketches of of her life, which I thought was super fun. Like that’s how my brain works. So to see somebody else be like, and this happened, and this happened, and this happened in a nice, like uniform way. Um Passagenauticle.com, Grace O’Malley, the pirate queen who ruled the Irish Seas. Also, I have to tell you, this is probably one of the biggest stories I’ve ever done as far as like stuff to look up. Have you ever heard of the Brennan Law? 

I have not. Cool. So I spent a great deal of my week learning about Brennan Law. There is an article um from Stephen Despen of Medium. It’s a July 25 article that kind of gives a nutshell of it, and then a couple more um just fun little articles that I found on her. Okay, so for context, I do have to give you a little bit of backstory because I think it’ll be more helpful to start with than to try to fit it into her story. But Grania’s born around 1530 to the powerful O’Malley clan. Now, according to Ann Chambers, they have quote been associated with the sea even before the written history of Ireland. So okay, they got it in their blood. 

Very much so. In fact, the arm the O’Malis are called the Lions of the Green Sea, which I’m just like, oh, that is such a name. I wanted to have an understanding sort of where they were based, and so Wikipedia was nice enough to kind of give me the the visual. Basically, they’re in this area called I’m going to pronounce it wrong, I know it, but it is Umhal or U M H A L L. I think it’s supposed to be pronounced as OL, but I’m not 100% sure. 

I tried looking it up multiple times and found different versions every time, so I’m not sure what’s correct. But basically, this area surrounds Clue Bay in the west of what is now County Mayo, Island. By the 12th century, its ruling family is the O’Malis. There is even a record of the Spanish king paying the O’Malis for 21 years for the rights and the protection to fish in the waters. Holy Spanish king. 

Not only are the Spanish doing this, but there’s records of the French and the English having worked out some sort of agreement to be in that area so they can fish. Like, the O’Malley’s have a very far-reaching hand, and you might be wondering how they could manage to contain all of this. Well, they have the loyalty of their own men, but also because at this point Ireland has like no central government, right? But has a lot of clans and a lot of clan leadership, and that gives us the Brennan law. But on top of that, the O’Malleys also have a relationship with the gallow glass mercenaries of Scotland. And these are guys that are for whatever reason in every version of her story that are perpetually loyal to the O’Malley’s. 

Theresa: That sounds like a good group to have. Right? 

Angie: I’m like, yeah, let’s do that. So for a quick overview of the Brennan Law, this is the Irish indigenous legal system that has governed everyday law in Ireland since like the seventh century. This is fully in effect until the 17th century when the English common law sort of takes over. 

So instead of relying on a one central state government or prison system, this keeps this law keeps the peace and it’s focused on like private arboration, mediation, and financial restitution. So like you’re keeping it within your own clan and you’re expected to handle clan business as clan business. And if it needs to go outside, you’re gonna like you’re gonna work with it together. 

You’re gonna sort it out without a central government. Now, typically this is in a very simple nutshell. You would have these very learned men, often of certain bloodlines who pass down the legal knowledge, like it’s a family business. 

Like that makes sense. We’re into fishing, we’re into law. Like and they spend, according to Despin of the media article, decades of their lives training in the legal interpretation, reading of old case laws, and memorizing legal tracks and local customs. To quote him, he says, unlike the English common law, which centralized power in the crown and later the state, Brennan law was communal, local, and based on mutual responsibility and restitution. 

It emphasized making amends, maintaining balance within the community, and preserving social harmony, not punishment for punishment’s sake. I love that. Right? If if there’s some sort of fine that’s been enacted, payment is expected to be taken care of by either the guilty party or clan leadership. So that knows all the business. 

Like you gotta handle your stuff. Um but something really fabulous about Brennan Law is its treatment of women. It’s fair to say that they had their formal start right about the seventh century, but its roots are much, much older, in fact, perhaps originating with the Druids. One source says that in ancient pagan times, the Bretons were often the same people as the Druids and the Poets. 

Now eventually the roles are gonna split, but poets and judges still work closely together in the Bren Law system, which I think is really interesting because you don’t particularly see poetry with law, but in Ireland it does. Interesting. Right? I think it’s their storytelling. 

That’s sort of is what makes sense to me. Um it’s super progressive for the time for women’s rights, including retain legal standing, property rights, and their own dowries. Men and women could call for divorce and settlements would include a fair division of property and shared assets. 

Like, this is wild to me, and that’s gonna come back in a really fun way later, I promise you. Now, since society is highly clan based, Desman says that status and rights are heavily dependent on your kinship obligations and like the ownership of cattle, which forms the basis of their economy. For them, cattle equals wealth. And so like this is something O’Malley’s and the O’Malley’s as a whole are perpetually like what are we at with the cattle? What are we doing with the cattle? Like that is wealth for them. 

Theresa: So weird that like sea based people are concerned about cattle, but here we are. 

Angie: Because but because the O’Malley’s being sea based, they they’re I’m gonna get into this in a little bit, but they’re sea and land. They just all happen to have like life in both places. Okay. So um according to um Trinity College Dublin, the brand laws are super detailed. 

Quote the detailed organization of society, including the laws governing marriage, fostering, sick maintenance, the use of pledges, beekeeping, the control of dogs, the role of church and state, and they offer protections for the most vulnerable members of society, including those with mental illness. And I’m like, holy crap. Wow. Seventh century, and we still can’t get it together today. 

Theresa: Well, but we’re not looking at the quality of that, just that stuff exists. 

Angie: Truly, but like from from my perspective of the area that we live in, that is something we could be much better at. And like there isn’t much for them. So to see that even then somebody was like, This is an issue we need to look into. 

Yeah, is big for me, right? Um, okay, so now that you have all that technical background, Dranya, like I said, is born in 1530 on Clare Island to the O’Malley clan, specifically the clan chieftain. Dewadra or Owen O’Malley. 

Um the Duadra, I believe it means black oak, that’s his nickname. Her mother is Margaret of Clan Mahor O’Malley. This is another branch of the Malley, the O’Malley’s. Now, two things that you need to know about this clan is the men of Grania’s family are the hereditary lords of this area of the Knop territory, and this is all on the west coast of Ireland. 

Additionally, they are descended from the oldest son of the high king of Ireland from the fourth century, and they know that. Like, that’s really cool to me. Right. Not only that, but her father, he’s the chieftain, right? And so as the chieftain, he is the king of his territory, and he swears no allegiance to any higher monarch. He is it. In fact, he remains one of the few Gaelic chiefs who never acknowledged any allegiance to the English. Whoa. 

He was like, absolutely not. Now, it’s understood that Grania would have been raised to understand the politics and all the nuance and subtleties of all of this, and she is not shy from like she is in the thick of it being taught all this. Um she is also like she’s raised living in one of the family castles around Clu Bay. Her early childhood is spent at the castle Belclair, which is the family seat. They also have like a favorite summer castle on Clare Island, which makes me wonder if that’s where she was like she was born there. 

I’m kind of curious if it was because they were summering. Um we don’t know a ton of info on her early years. She would have likely been educated by by a local monastery. She was incredibly educated and even spoke Latin. Like she was not missing out on anything. And she has unlike. 

Theresa: had that royal education. Right. 

Angie: And unlike her English counterparts for women at the time, she is raised to rule. She is formidable, like they are raised to be this way. She is taught archery, horseback riding, the sword, politics. Like these women are not gonna just sit down and let the men do all the work. Like they’re gonna fight, they’re gonna rule, they’re gonna handle it. Now, in our girl’s case, she is truly of the land and the sea. 

In fact, their clan motto means valiant by land and sea. By the time she is seven, she is driving her dad nuts. I want to be on the boats, dad. I want to be on the boat, dad. Put me on the boats, dad. 

Theresa: You gotta be fifteen. That’s what they or thirteen. 

Angie: But there is still that superstition of women on boats. Oh, dang it. Right? And so he’s doing all the things to sort of try and sway her elsewhere, and this doesn’t work. And at one point he even tries telling her, darling, your lovely red hair is gonna be a danger on board, like you’re gonna get hurt. 

It can’t, you can’t have long hair on board. So she just cuts it off. Like, well, okay. Now what? And this earns her one of her many nicknames, which is Mahool, meaning bald, um, but she wasn’t, but you get the gist, like they had to give her some c some kind of fun name for this. 

Right. By the time she’s nine, dad has all but given up on telling her no, and he starts training her to sail. She does so well, he chooses her over her brother to raise up on the ocean. Holy cow. 

Mm-hmm. So she’s like, girl gets it, and I think that’s just awesome. And for the next six or so years, she’s taking part in all of dad’s seaborne missions. She’s doing a little plundering, a little piracy, because one of the fun things about being in O’Malley is you have control of that water. 

You can enact tolls. So they’re having she she is doing all the things, and dad’s like, well, that she’s gonna be on the boat, we might as well train her how to do it. But she’s 16 and around 1546, she has to marry. Now my understanding of this is that per Gaelic custom, your first marriage is a political alliance. 

So, which sort of makes sense. She dutifully weds a man called Donald O’Flattery. He is the heir to another powerful clan, and this is pretty much a good match for her, but it’s also a really great alliance for the two clans. She moves to his family seat at Bonoen Castle. She gets immediately involved in the governance of clan life, does a little seafaring. 

The fun thing about this is she is basically the real power behind the family here, like naval-wise, otherwise, like she’s she’s the one that’s she again. She’s 16. Dang. 

Yeah. Um, she very quickly gains influence over his men, and they very quickly are like, okay, she she’s the one that’s in charge. But she is also doing the wisely duties and gives him three children in like pretty quick success in. Now he is a skilled warrior. In fact, his nickname in English is Donald of the Battles. 

However, he has a quick temper and he’s super ambitious, and this doesn’t pair well for him, and he succumbs to a young death right out, like out on mission. Total, they’re married for like 20 years, and for most of that time, she’s the clan leader in action, if not in name, because despite the fact that they’re progressive towards women, women aren’t typically chieftains. But like not in her house. 

Right. Um during the time, during this 20 years that she’s with him, she’s settling the disputes. She’s handling trading missions to Ulster, Scotland, Spain, as well as Portugal, also little piracy. She’s they’re doing that against merchant ships. But when her husband’s murdered, she and his men go on a revenge tour in the 1560s. And during this, there’s this great story that she and some of her followers were trapped in a place called Cox Castle by a force of Englishmen. Now, supposedly, O’Malley orders the lead roof of the castle to be removed, melted, and poured over the turrets right onto the English besiegers. Yeah. Um now, while they are otherwise engaged, O’Malley and her forces are able to get out. They win the day, and the castle is renamed Hens Castle, and still is to this day. Which I think is so fun. 

Wow. Um Ebsko has another fun story from this time frame saying, quote, another legend that has its basis in facts is the Howleth incident. Tradition suggests that O’Malley landed her ships at Howleth for a resupply, and as in the Gaelic custom, went to the castle of the Lord for hospitality. The Lord, being at dinner, refused omittance. O’Malley was reportedly so incessed by this breach of polite behavior that she kidnapped the Lord’s son. When Lord Hallis followed and begged for his son’s release, O’Malley demanded that the gates of Cal Castle never be closed to anyone who requested hospitality and then an extra plate always be laid at his table. 

Reportedly, the castle still follows the custom to this day. That’s kind of cool. Right? I mean, that’s that’s pretty cool when you have that kind of sway. 

Um here’s the thing though. By this point, her kids are mostly grown, and her husband is dead, and the prospects for her to stay with the O’Flatteries is kind of grim. So she goes home to Poss with a flotilla of galleries galleys with her followers, and she merges the two groups into one very formidable site. Um, because remember, as I mentioned, she’s also got the Scottish gal glasses on her side. So things are like, she’s got it. She’s got a lot of loyalty. But keep in mind, this is the 16th century, and we have a bit of a problem. The English exist. 

Theresa: And they tend to show up and really pee on people’s parades. 

Angie: I was I when I get a little further, I have a funny thought that crossed my mind while I was reading about this. Um during this time, they have some really violent rebellions from the Gaelic lords against the crown of Elizabeth I, our girl Lindsey Um, but sh that doesn’t stop that doesn’t stop our girl Grania. She takes a lover called Hugh Delarcy, whom she evidently rescued for the sea from the sea, and then he’s murdered by the big by the McMahons, and so she seeks revenge again. And despite all of this, O’Malley marries again to a man called Richard Burke because his home is Rockfleet Castle and it controls the inland harbor. She wants access to this. 

So she just marries him for it. And this is probably one of my favorite stories of her whole thing. There is this belief from historians that that had originally thought they might have been myth, but have since declared it must bear some truth. And um that is that by the son of her by the birth of her son with him, Theobald or Tiabol, uh Tibbett, it goes by multiple here, but sources different. I don’t know if it’s from Gaelic to English or what the difference is here because he’s called something different multiple times. 

Okay. But whatever the case is, by the time he’s born, he is supposedly born at sea. It’s 1562nd, 1567, and just one day after his birth, Turkish Algerian pirates attack the galley, and a battle breaks out. She is begged to come on deck and sort out the problem. So she does. And she sails home with a new captured Turkish ship. Okay, mind you. And a baby. 

Theresa: Her Volva is the size of a grapefruit. And she’s needing to squash this. Right. Now, this is my favorite part. 

Angie: She gets home, she brings this this new ship in, and um her marriage to Richard is over. Because at the time, per their custom, you could have something called a trial marriage that could be ended for whatever reason, but I believe it had to last a year. So a year and a day after the marriage took place, she kicks him out of Rockfleet Castle. 

Wow. She’s like, bye. Now, from everything I can tell, they maintained some sort of friendship for the rest of his life. So I some sources suggest he remained her husband, but all the other sources really made me think like there was never a reconciliation. 

Unclear, but she she at one point tells him to kick rocks. Um Now, she goes about her life making great money for her clan for like almost 20 years. She reunites with Richard, at least in a working capacity, to protect themselves from the English, but in that time frame, she also helps Richard become the elected successor to the McWilliam of Mayo, and he is like the guy. 

Like he is the power in Mayo. And so this is like this is what she’s working for for him all the while trying to keep the English at bay. However, the current sitting McWilliam capitulates to Lizzie, and this puts Richard’s position in danger. 

So they’re like, oh, oh crap. In 1577, so she’s already put him in the run, the running for air here, she thoroughly impresses Sir Henry Sidney, who happens to be Elizabeth’s minister and the Lord Deputy in Ireland. Sydney has this to say about her quote, a most famous feminine sea captain, famous for her stoutness of courage, commanding three galleys and two hundred fighting men. This was the most notorious women in all the coasts of Ireland. And he’s like the English, going, Oh damn. Yeah. 

Theresa: She’s so let women on boats. And honestly, she’s a reason as to why we might need to make an exception. 

Angie: Right. Um, also in the same year, Grace raids the lands of the Earl of Desmond, and she is captured and then imprisoned in Limerick. She is then released um and handed over because Desmond wants to save his own neck to the English governor, where she is held and then released in Dublin Castle, which I was like, Dublin Castle, like the Dublin Castle, the castle where the Irish Crown Jewels were stolen from. Yes. Same castle. 

Couple hundred years apart, but same castle. Now it’s said that she was released because um Richard rose to rebellion and they released that hope they released her hoping that she could bring him in line and like quash the rebellion. Like, hey, if I’m out, we’re not causing problems. And this sort of goes back and forth like this for the next few years. 1580 rolls around and the McWilliam dies, and his son succeeds instead of Richard. So this is problematic for them. Um and this is per like English law, so the O’Malley’s aren’t real happy about this anyway. So O’Malley and Richard they rebel, like they want to secure the rights to their people and their land without the English. So they’re they’ve got they’ve got big feels about all of this. And her ships are loaded with the gallow glasses, and the English are no match. And so they they agree to a deal. They’re like, okay, well, um, they really want to talk to you about this. 

Yeah. So Richard does become the McWillian of Mayo, and he is inaugurated in the age-old Gaelic custom, and they continue to fight this slow encroachment of the English to their lands. But just three years later, in 1583, Richard dies. 

And O’Malley’s like, crap. So she ensures that Rockfleet Castle is secure as her base, and then it pretty much all goes into hell hell in a handbasket in the in 1584 when Sir Richard Bingham is appointed the new English government, and he sets out to bring her down. And here is where my funny thought is. The English have such a funny way of deciding that this is going to be our land now. We’re just going to provide you a governor you may or may not like him. 

That’s pretty much what happens here. And the Irish are like, no, thank you. Yeah, We were good. We didn’t need your help. 

We were doing just fine. And this guy has it out for O’Malley, like hard. So she leads a rebellion against him. 

Because why not? Um he’s gonna spend the next ten years trying to ruin her. Eventually he drives the O’Malley clan into poverty. And one of the worst parts of his story is that in 1586, her oldest son Owen is killed by Bingham’s brother. Shortly after, Bingham lures O’Malley to his headquarters under the guise of truth, like of tr of truce. Like, hey, so sorry about what’s happened. 

Let’s come have a chat. But instead, once he gets there, he proclaim she gets there, he proclaims her a traitor and condemns her to death. How nice. Um she is then rescued by her her son-in-law because her son-in-law has promised to keep her at bay. He’s gonna keep her under his thumb, things are gonna go great. But once she’s freed, they both joined the rebellion with the rebels. Like that was kind of the plan. 

Theresa: Oh, I was I was a little afraid that he was gonna be a turncoat for him. 

Angie: No, he was like, We’ll get you out. We got this. Um 1587, O’Malley seeing that Bingham has been sent away, meets the new Lord Deputy of Dublin, and he’s a man called Sir John Perrett, and he is a bit of a rival to Bingham, and he I don’t know the reason why it might just be because he’s a rival or because he actually looked at the evidence, whatever the reason. He pardons O’Malley and all of her children for all of their offenses made up or otherwise. So Bingham is pissed. The official story is that she is to retire and the quiet life little old lady life and stop plundering. She doesn’t. I’m about to say, I hope not. 

No. The following year, she goes to Ulster to speak with the O’Neills, with who ha he’s got this excuse me. The O’Neills have allies in the O’Donnells, and both of them are plotting to unite the whole of the Irish for the time, and with the help of the Spanish plan to remove the English from Ireland. 

Now, I this was absolutely such a wild connection to me. You remember that really famous moment in English history where Queen Elizabeth takes out the Spanish Armada? Yes. 168. This is it. 1588. 1588. 

Theresa: Why’d I say 1660 was something else? Carry on. 

Angie: I would not have thought the Irish were involved in this at all. Like I thought it was just between Spain and England, but basically, Spain sees this as a sees England as a whole and the crown as a problem. And in the meantime, while the Spanish Armada is making its way here, Bingham returns to Ireland because of fears of the Spanish Armada. They’ve come to overthrow the Protestant Queen, thus helping to push the English out of Ireland. However, the Spanish are outmaneuvered, and then the weather just smashes them to bits. 

And this whole time, I’m like, y’all mean to say my girl Grania was sitting over there on the west coast of Ireland ready to go. And this whole time I thought the Spanish just had it out for the English for a completely different reason, but they were all working together to out the English. 

Theresa: I mean, don’t get me wrong. They’ve always had a beef. 

Angie: Truly. But I just didn’t I didn’t make the connection there at all until this, and I was like, holy crap, wow. Now Bingham finds out about O’Malley’s relationship with the Spanish, sets out to take revenge, and basically all out war between the two has been declared. He accuses her of treason and being, quote, the nurse to all rebellions in Ireland, and then he reports her to Elizabeth because he’s a tattletale. cattle tail. 

Theresa: Yeah, he’s a he’s a jealous little little brat. 

Angie: Yeah, he is. To make matters worse, in 1590, Bingham pressures Grace’s second son to ally with him. This is obviously infuriating to O’Malley and only works to redouble her attacks on him. And he loses his ever loving mind and destroys a good chunk of her fleet, essentially taking all of her power, but she still manages to strike back and seize an English ship. And then she asks to speak with his manager. She writes Elizabeth directly, telling her all about the injustices that she’s been dealt by this man. And Elizabeth writes back and she sort of sends her this like questionnaire. 

There’s something like 18 questions on there, and I would love to read them. Um but anyway, so they have this written exchange, and that’s r right around 1590, fi between 1590 and 1592, but in 1593, Bingham seizes her son Tibbet, the one that was born at sea, and charges him with treason, which is punishable by death. Grania seeing this as like, oh hell no, and in July of fifteen ninety-three, she makes the very dangerous decision to just sail to London herself and put the case in front of Elizabeth. I’ve had enough of this guy’s crap. There’s some chutzpah there. 

Right. Um Ebsco says, quote, Bingham’s campaign appropriated her wealth and holdings and blocked her sea ventures, even legitimate voyages. In desperation, O’Malley decided to challenge his authority early in fifteen ninety-three, she petitioned Queen Elizabeth for release from Bingon’s reign of terror. In a daring and clever letter, O’Malley described her dismal circumstances and asked the Queen for maintenance from her late husband’s estates in a brilliant twist, O’Malley ended her letter with an offer to use her seafaring skills and fleet of galleys to fight enemies of the Queen in a bold bid to resume piracy under the Queen’s name. 

Theresa: Wow. 

Angie: In July of 1593, this is so this is all the this is all part of the Abesco quote. Um Queen Elizabeth responds with her letter of her own, to which she asks the questions, and apparently this is called the articles of Introgatory. introgator interrogatory. Um basically the questions and O’Malley’s answer provide this factual telling of her very unusual life and a reflection of Irish society and politics. 

Bingham’s vicious crusades increase, however, and when her son Owen had been murdered in Bingham’s custody and her youngest son Theobald was arrested, O’Malley sets out for English to England to have a face-to-face audience with the Queen. 

Theresa: Okay, so now we’re back to that audience. 

Angie: Right. The Queen, there’s been this like long-standing belief that when she does meet the Queen, they speak to each other in Latin because they have no common language. That is, in fact, not the truth. Oh she speaks English. There’s nothing stopping O’Malley from speaking English. 

So my thought is if they did, and we don’t know for sure, but if they did speak in Latin, was it because the others in the room couldn’t really snoop on the conversation? That would make sense. Right? Because in my in my imagination, you’re looking at two very powerful women right around the same age, having to deal with this world that is full of patriarchal BS. And so part of me is like, I wonder if they did just to keep everybody else’s ears shut for like a split second. Fascinating to know. Now, regardless of the language they spoke in, she basically gets what she wants, the release of her son and to carry on with life. Bingham is recalled to England in 1594. 

So suck it, Bingham. Um we know that she stays up to her seafaring and fighting ways at least until 1597, when she is 67 years old and engaged in a retaliatory attack on McNeil of Bar off the coast of Scotland. So they’re still like 67. 

We know she’s still doing stuff. Now, the Irish Gaelic world as they know it is gonna come crashing down at the Battle of Kensell in 1601. Um I do have a short explanation, but the gist of this, what you need to know is this defeat shatters the Irish alliance and it accelerates the collapse of Gaelic Lordship and paves the way for English dominance across Ireland, and it culminates in O’Neill’s eventual submission in 1603. 

The same year Granio O’Malley would die at Rockfleet Castle and Queen Elizabeth at Richmond Palace. Wow. Right. I just want to end with this quote from Ann Chambers. Um quote, when Gaelic loss burned her as a female chieftain, O’Malley ignored the political and social obstacles placed in her path. Such was her influence and power that she became an accepted matriarch, not merely to her own followers, but of neighboring clans whose own chieftains had either died or abandoned their obligations to protect their followers. 

Like sis was standing on business the whole time. And that’s the story of Brendan O’Malley. Dang. 

Yes. Oh, there was also, I didn’t put it in my notes, but there was this there was this one bit that when she met went to meet the queen, she had a sniffle or something, and somebody offered her a linen handkerchief tissue. She blew her, yeah, she blew her nose and threw it into the fire, and the English were aghast. And she was like, in our custom, you burn these because they’re dirty. And I was like, so y’all mean to tell me they had a stronger understanding of germ theory. So that’s my girl Grania. 

Theresa: I adore it. That is what an unhinged seafaring episode, accidental though it was. Truly. 

Angie: I like that we were on the same brain train, but so far away from each other. Just across the pond. I mean, in years. My girl died in 1603, so we were good. Yeah, fair. 

Theresa: Well, if you’ve enjoyed this seafaring expedition and you can’t wait to hear how our mind melt links up again, rate review, subscribe. Uh, join us in Patreon where you get the ad-free version, and we have little shorties where we talk to you about stories that don’t have enough meat for an entire episode, but were nonetheless delicious. And on that note, goodbye. 

Speaker 3: Bye.