Listen to the episode here.

Angie and Theresa have quite a set of stories to share with you. Kicking things off, Angie shares the wild story of Saladin. This man held it down as the Sultan of Egypt and Syria during the Crusades. Getting his position after a …ahem series of deaths, he proves to be an incredible ruler, who would give away his vast fortune throughout his life.

Theresa veers wildly from this story, as she shares the time a convent in medieval France started meowing, non-stop. The plague of the meowing nuns gets recorded in two books of the 1800’s. Theresa desperately tried to hunt down all of the details.

This episode pairs well with:
Eleanor of Aquitaine
The Dancing Plagues

Transcript

Theresa: Hi, and welcome to the Unhinged History Podcast, the podcast where two absolute compulsive dog owners who love history stories will research them out the yin yang and then come back and tell the other one the story they’ve only recently learned. I’m host one, I’m Teresa, and that is Angie. 

Angie: I was fully going to cut you off when I did and I’m Angie. Hi, I’m host two. 

Theresa: I realize, I should say this out loud, because we haven’t said it for the longest time. If you’re trying to get ahold of us, we have an email that I check bi-weekly, twice a week, not once every other week. 

Not like a paycheck? Yeah, it is unhinged.historypod at gmail.com. Also, we have a Patreon, so you can get on that and interact. 

If you do the Patreon, there’s the free version, which is the same as what you’re doing now, conceivably. But we have cool things as well, like Angie made a bingo card, and so you can follow along at home and figure out, have we said the thing? Maybe it was a tombstone quote. Maybe Angie burped on the mic. Who knows? 

Angie: Wow, calling me out with my government name like that, huh? 

Theresa: Okay. Would you like me to play some of the soundbites that I’ve saved 

Angie: on my computer over the last couple of years? No, I’d like you to keep them forever. You can keep them. 

Theresa: Because at some point, I just randomly messaged them to Ian, just so he knows some of your antics. Oh, he’s aware. 

Angie: He’s married to me. 

Theresa: I know, but it sounds different coming from a voice note from a random woman. 

Angie: That would be awesome if he thought you were a random woman setting him a voice note, but he is fully aware of who you are too. 

Theresa: I mean, I can spoof my number. I can do all kinds of stuff. I, you know, I’m not motivated enough to do that, but I could. I understand the technology to do so. 

Theresa: As you should. Good for you. 

Theresa: I believe in you. Not my fault that I’m lazy. I mean, don’t, you know what? I’ll read into this. I want to carry on. 

Angie: Yeah, you know what? I go first today. Should I just go first? Yeah, cut me off, would you? Yeah, you know what? I’m just going to tell my story, but first I got to find my sources. Um, okay, my sources are an Al Jazeera article. Hit in hard. It’s a profile. 

It’s a profile on, on this person. Wikipedia has a really delightful timeline. Thank God. Uh, there is a book called, he booked by John Mann. At this point, I now have to tell you his name. Uh, Saladin, the Sultan who vanquished the Crusaders and built an Islamic empire. There is also a really delightful book by Sir Stanley Lane Pole called Saladin and the fall of the kingdom of Jerusalem. There is a very short write up on PBS that was cute. 

That’s a weird word, but anyway. Historymaps.com, a YouTube by Bellum at History, Bellum at Historia, and then another biographics YouTube because I just think that guy is fantastic. And then there was a source called Free Quran Education. 

It’s got videos and it is also on the battle of Albabine. And for the record, I never do this, but I would like to call my part of the story and then he died. 

Theresa: Okay. Do you know if this feels lost and confused? See you. I feel that way. Good. 

Angie: It’ll all work itself out here shortly. All right. So I had this like massive big backstory to sort of show you the world that our man was born into, but for the sake of our brains, because it’s huge, what you need to know is that he was born into a world that is incredibly diverse, rich in culture, education and religion. But along with that, there’s also a lot of infighting and they all have one common problem, which is the crusaders. Let’s say it’s the white people. It’s them white people at it again. 

Okay. So Salahadin Youssef Ibn A’ib who we would become to be known as Salahadin or Saladin or Saladin, however you want to pronounce it because I have a feeling that Bro was just like however you’re going to say it. 

Theresa: I mean, honestly, as soon as you pulled the like the pronunciation away, I was like, Oh, that dude. Yeah. 

Angie: And that I personally love Salahadin. I think that sounds so beautiful. But in the West and for the modern world, he is known as Saladin. He is born around 1137 into Crete, which is in modern Iraq to a Kurdish family from the Ravadiya tribe. As the story goes, and I’m just going to, I’m going to give you a disclaimer here. His story is so big and there are so many people involved that I like distilled it down to fit. Otherwise we’d be here for 17 business days. Okay. So if he’s interesting to you, please go look him up. 

There’s a lot of great resources and a lot of really fun stuff to learn. Okay. So the night he’s born, at least that’s how the story goes. His family has to flee his birthplace due to some problems his dear old dad had gotten into. Basically, his father, his full name is Najim al-Din Ayyib, even Sahadi. He, he’s a Kurdish soldier of fortune who takes service under these Seljuk Turkish rulers in both Iraq and Syria. And he sort of houses the enemy for a little bit, but also, and more importantly in this moment, he has a brother. His brother is called Asad Adin Shakur and he has just killed the close friend of a regional military governor. All right. 

Theresa: This is problematic. Yeah, they are movers and shakers in the worst way. 

Angie: In this particular case, yes. So the whole family has to flee. And he joins the service, so they flee his birthplace and his father joins the service of Ahmed Adin Zengi. He’s in Mosul and then he’s going to later appoint Saladin’s father to the governor of a place called Balbek. So all of this is just sort of setting the stage for the rise of Saladin’s dynasty. They resettle. They eventually move to Damascus. And eventually, Saladin himself is also going to enter into the service of Zengi, this regional ruler. 

Okay. But before that, he grows up, like he has to get an education, right? Because education is important. He grows up in, he spends his teenagers in Damascus. But before that, he is studying astronomy, he elucid, he’s studying law, he’s studying the chron, Arab genealogy, horse breeding, poetry. 

He speaks Kurdish, Arabic, Turkish and Persian. Holy crap. Right? He is not specifically educated to rule. Like, he wasn’t, that wasn’t what was going to be the plan for him, right? That’s just how his childhood went. And for the most part, his childhood and his youth make him seem far more scholar than soldier. And not only that, but he’s also influenced by the Sufi teachings. And there are some really big left over feelings from the first crusade, which was back in 1099 in the whole capture of Jerusalem. Like, there are some big, big emotions about this. 

All of these things, they combine to give Saladin this like really deep, tidy and a commitment to Jihad. Now, I don’t know for you, for you, but that word ever since September 11th has had a really different understanding, I think, in the American mind. And so I was like, that’s not what we think it is. 

Or not what the people that I’ve spoke to since September 11th think it is, right? Right. So you have this struggle to strive to exert effort all for the goal of your path to heaven, right? You have this internal struggle and this external struggle. And that’s what Jihad is. But the external struggle can include things like the crusaders being problematic for them and their internal struggles. 

Theresa: I’m seeing where the definition gets conflated. Right? 

Angie: And so I was like, you know, I think that I need to understand that a little bit more, but that makes total sense when you look at it like that. So this is all to say, in his younger years, he’s more religious and he’s more into education and he shows very little interest in warfare. And that seems to benefit him because later it’s going to prove him to be a great administrator. But the world knows him as this all conquering military technician. 

He’s brilliant, right? Well, that’s because his military career would be launched under his uncle, the same uncle that got in trouble for killing somebody back home. He is now serving as a general under the Zengi ruler, a man called Nuriden. It’s 1164 to 1169. Saladin’s in his late 20s by now and he joins his uncle on an expedition to the Fatmated in Egypt. 

It’s here in 1167 that he plays this key role at the Battle of Al-Balbine. And I’m just going to really quick tell you about this because it’s so impressive. Let’s just say for the sake of time, there have been some really big betrayals recently. His uncle, who is the general of the army and Nuriden, the ruler, they have patients like you would not believe and they are here for the long game. And they start planning how they’re going to handle this betrayal because mind you, we are not only dealing with like the internal strife of our own people, we are also dealing with this back and forth between the crusaders. 

So at any point you could turn tail and join the side of the crusaders if it was going to benefit you, right? Yeah. So this is sort of what they’re looking at. So there’s this, I love this so much, there’s this area of desert in Egypt near Gaza and at the time it’s got these great dunes and like they just surround this area. So the goal that Saladin and Shakur work out is that they need to draw the crusader force that they see coming into this area. And the crusaders are like fantastic because we are looking to take control of Egypt. 

So this is perfect. So Saladin takes a portion of the army and he goes out into like the center of this big open expanse and he impersonates the role of central command. 

Theresa: He impersonates it? Yes. Okay, so this is a ghost army move sort of deal. 

Angie: Basically because he’s like wearing the commanding outfit, right? But at this point he is not the commander of the troops, that’s Shakur. But Shakur has taken the rest of the army and he is hiding them behind the dunes. So the crusader army from far off, he’s Saladin and his men and he’s like, oh, we can take that. 

Great. With no idea that the biggest contingent of the army is in the dunes. They charge and Saladin waits till they’re like the moment and he calls for a retreat. This is of course a feigned retreat. Saladin and his men turn tail and they head into the desert with the crusaders on these huge heavy draft horses giving chase. 

This retreat does a couple of absolutely brilliant things. First, these heavy horses are not bred or equipped to deal with the desert or the dunes. So chasing Saladin and his men into the desert is hard. Yeah. Right? Like it’s not going as quick as they’d like. 

Meanwhile, Saladin and his men are breaking up this bigger crusader force into smaller groups and separating them out. And then… Okay, I see the strategy. 

He comes around and with his men coming around the other side out of the dunes, the crusader force is now flanked on both sides and a stop is firmly put to their plan. And this is really where we see his genius for the first time because that was him. Like, hey, what if we just trick him? We can use this geography to our benefit. And then his uncle Shakira dies in 1169. So if you’re keeping a death count, that is death number one. 

Theresa: Saladin… You know, I wasn’t keeping a death count because that was number one. 

Angie: Well, you should. Because Saladin would then assassinate the Vizier, Shawar, for context. This is the man who betrayed Saladin’s leader in the first place. So he kind of had it coming. 

That’s death number two. Saladin becomes the Vizier himself under the Cleath, Al-Aded. And then in 1171, Saladin abolishes this Cleathate altogether. Basically what had happened is the Cleath that he was working as a Vizier under had suffered a severe illness and died in September-ish of 1171. So now we’re at death number three. 

Theresa: When they’re dropping like flies. 

Angie: Like flies. When this happens, Saladin restores Sunni rule under the Abbasids. So at this point it had been under Shiite rule and he was working very hard to bring it under his division, right? 

Like under his religious sect. And then in 1174 he conquers Yemen because he needs its port. That same year, Nur-A-Dindai’s. So death number four. Now Nur-A-Dind for just memory purposes, he’s the guy that him and his uncle worked for. And Saladin peacefully seizes Damascus and then he takes Hamah, Holmes, and Aleppo. 

Because Bro is just doing too much all the time. Now I could get into his character here, but I think I’ll just wait till he ends because he is a fascinating individual. In 1175, he defeats a rival faction of the Zangis, which was the dynasty that had previously been working with under Nur-A-Dind. A place called the Horns of Hamah. And this is, I was more interested in why it’s called the Horns of Hamah than what happened at the battle doesn’t because I’ve heard it twice in history and I was like, what does this mean? But basically it refers to two distinct mountain peaks or like summits that overlook the city. And so it’s just named that because it’s the geographical landmark, but in the Middle East there are lots of the horns of. Like every river that has two peaks has a horns of. 

And I was like, wow, that’s fascinating. Right about this point, he survives at least one assassination attempt because this wouldn’t be a story about this timeframe without somebody trying this. 

Theresa: I mean, look, he got his job from sniping on the roof chops. So somebody else is going to be coming for him. 

Angie: You would think by 1182 though, he’s taken control of Egypt, Syria and parts of Mesopotamia. So this unifies Muslim forces in this area, right? And he is using these wonderful things called diplomacy. 

It’s wild. There’s a little nepotism here because he does make appointments for family members, but he also appoints like actually qualified people to do the jobs they’re good at. And this includes both Jews and Christians as well. Like if you’re good at the job, it doesn’t matter what your religious belief is, come do the job. 

Whatever that may be. So I thought that was kind of interesting when you think about the fact that his whole goal is to get rid of the crusaders. But like, hey, there were Christians here to begin with. There’s no reason we can’t work together. 

You’re not the problem. And I think that’s like such a mindset I’m so impressed with. So he’s also, he’s reforming things. He’s taking on building projects. He’s digging wells. He’s working on bridges. He’s working on religious colleges. Now at these religious colleges, there’s a little bit of favoritism towards like the Kurdish troops coming through because he was one. So it sort of makes sense that you would want people of your history to have some sort of boon, I guess. That’s how I took it when I read it. 

And then for this next little bit, I’m just going to give you a quick timeline for context because otherwise we’d be here for days. But it’s safe to say that at this time, Saladin has forged the Ayyubid Empire and it stretches from Egypt to Yemen and northern Mesopotamia. So that’s a visual map, like huge, right? While running this empire, he also has to deal with internal revolts that are not easily dealt with, but he’s handling them. He is also raiding crusader lands repeatedly. He suffers some setbacks. 

There is one against King Balblin IV. I always pronounce this wrong, so please stick with me. Montecassard, I know it’s wrong, but he suffers a bit of a setback there. But then he also has some victories too. We have places like Jacob’s Fort in 1179 that he handles quite beautifully. And then a man called Reynald of Cheleon shows up. And this guy has been crusading and raiding the Red Sea, which is threatening places like Mecca. This is very problematic for my guy here because not only is this man raiding the areas near the Holy City, he has also raided a caravan that Saladin’s sister was in and she’s murdered. 

Theresa: Oh, yeah, this is how we wake up the dragon. 

Angie: Right, he’s a little bit, oh, this guy’s problematic. And then war, like all out war, finally breaks out. And all of this is basically leading to the Battle of Hedatin on July 4th in 1187, which is like the battle that firmly put Saladin in the history books. He’s got this disciplined army and it completely annihilates the crusader force. At this point, it’s being led by King Guy, however you want to pronounce it. 

He is the King Jerusalem and another man called Raymond III. I can get into the battle here if you really want to because it is pretty impressive, but we don’t have to. That said, after the battle, he captures Reynald, this guy that he’s had the beef with, and King Guy. And he promptly, promptly executes Reynald and then drops this icon decline. It’s not the want of kings to kill kings, but that man had transgressed all bounds. That man had a cover. 

I hate that guy. Right, and like to boot this by this point, the battle has gone so bad for the crusaders that I am sure King Guy is like, could you just take me out too? Like that would be great. Like, could I be done? Could I be done here? I don’t want to go home. Got an answer for this. Please take me home. Like it was a travesty and at every, a travesty for the crusaders at every point in this battle, which only lasted a day. Oh crap. The Saladin’s men were better outfitted. Better rested and better disciplined than the entire crusader force, and they knew what they were doing. 

Theresa: Well, because the crusaders, the crusaders, this was basically like a theme to vacation. 

Angie: Right. Okay. And there’s tons of different factions within the crusader army that you’re dealing with here. Right. You have the hospital or knights, the Templar knights. You have just regular mercenaries. You have the actual armies that came with the actual kings. 

And then you have guys that are just going on the crusade because their mom told them to. Right. Like, there’s a lot going on and Saladin knows this and he uses it to advantage. The other thing that he has in his box of goodies that the crusaders severely lack is access to fresh cold water. 

Theresa: Oh, surprise. You think that that could be an issue in the desert. 

Angie: You would think, right? These people are so advanced. They are bringing down frozen water from the mountaintops and keeping it cold. 

Theresa: And meanwhile, our crusaders can’t keep their hands under nail gene bottles. 

Angie: Facts every single time. So like, these guys are just, it’s not going great for them, if you know what I mean. Right. Okay. So all of this happens and the battle of Hettin literally shatters crusaders. And it also opens the path to Jerusalem. And this is a huge marking point in the Muslim counter crusade. So not only has this happened, like not only has the battle like absolutely destroyed their forces. 

The other thing that happens is it is a massive decline in Raoul because one of the things that the crusaders are carrying is a piece of what they believe to be the true cross, which Saladin takes. You know, okay. 

Theresa: If you, if this is one of the things my mom used to tell me, if you really like that toy, leave it at home. You’re going to take it. You’re going to leave it. You’re going to lose it. And then I’m going to have to hear about little Betsy Boo Boo being stuck on the side of the road because you heaved her out the window. 

Angie: You would think, now here’s the crazy thing. The last time anybody saw this, it wasn’t Damascus. Nobody has seen it since it has been lost to time. Like nobody knows where this chunk of the true cross went. 

Theresa: And we have not seen it since. It’s disintegrated. 

Angie: Let’s be honest. Well, they’ve encased it in gold at this point. Like it is encased in gold and they’re carrying it around. I saw some different imagery of it. Some of it had like a case in the center of a bigger cross that they were like carrying. Some people think maybe perhaps encased in gold and then put obviously in some sort of safety box, that kind of thing. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter. What’s happened is the true cross, this chunk of the true cross has been encased in gold and lost. 

We haven’t seen it since. After Hattin, Saladin sieges Jerusalem and he captures it on October 2, 1187. And unlike the 1099 Crusader, Madras Kerr, he offers generous ransom terms for men, women, children, everybody. Poor prisoners, so the poor stuck in Jerusalem, they are freed on mouth. 

The patriarch of Jerusalem is a man called Heracles and he raises funds. And then Saladin’s brother also just releases thousands more people because we are not about causing problems for the people in the city we’ve just besieged. Like this isn’t what it’s about. 

You guys didn’t cause this problem, they did. Right. So you go about your life. Eventually, poor King He does get released in 1188. And I’m sure the whole time he’s like, Mother of God, Mother of God, Mother of God. 

Theresa: I’ve been trying to die. They have started to force feed me. Don’t send me home this whole time. 

Angie: But also Saladin’s a great conversationalist. So I don’t really know what I think about this. So then, because we can’t have a story about the Crusades without bringing in our boy Richard the Lionheart, the fall of Jerusalem would of course trigger the third Crusade, which would go on from 1189 to 1192. And this Crusade would see Saladin facing Europe’s greatest kings, most notably Richard the First of England, Richard the Lionheart. His mother, Eleanor of Aquitaine, who I covered in episode 77, she had attended the second Crusade of 1147. 

Theresa: By the way, when you said Richard the Lionheart, his mom, and I was like, okay, I forgot it was Eleanor of Aquitaine. I just thought it was some woman. 

Angie: Some woman. This broad, she had come previous to the Crusade. So it’s like a family tradition, you know? But on to Richard, because their story together to me, like, I have one book that I’m reading and one book that I listened to, and the book that I listened to gave me such funny visuals for the time between Richard and Saladin. First of all, by the time Richard entered the picture, Saladin’s in his 50s. He’s like, I have literally been fighting this war my whole life. My back hurt. 

I’m on vacation. Pretty much. And then this guy shows up and they go back and forth for what seems like forever. And it gives me these two images that I just can’t get out of my mind. One is it’s like the scene in Deadpool and Wolverine fighting in the minivan where they just can’t stop. 

Like it gives me that. Or it’s two of the tiz but a scratch night from Money Python, like just facing each other back and forth, back and forth. There is one point where they are both sick. They are both dealing with things like scurvy and other uncomfortableness of battle. 

And they’re literally just like, okay, let’s do it again. All right. There’s a story about Saladin finding out that Richard is like unbearably sick. And this doesn’t sit well with him. Like as far as he’s concerned, this is about honor and I can’t fight a sick man. So I’ll send him my position. Oh, I called it. Right. His fresh water, his good dates like fruit, mangoes, like maybe probably not mangoes, but all the things right to help Richard like get over it because quite frankly, I just can’t find a dying man. This is giving Wesley of the Princess Bride. 

Theresa: Yes. 

Angie: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. There’s this long siege from 89 and 91 which ends in the Muslim defeat and Richard infamously massacres 3,000 prisoners. Not so cool with everybody here, right? At a place called Erischof, Erischof, in September of 1991, Saladin suffers huge losses and he draws, withdraws strategically. At this point, King Richard would take Jaffa and Saladin would completely dismantle Ashlan. So they’re like sort of trying to come to a truce here, but it’s just not always working. 

There is the Battle of Jaffa, which is like a dramatic near-miss, and it sees Richard relieve the city just in time. Mutual respect is shown, gifts are exchanged. There’s a story in this moment about Saladin buying back a Christian child with his own money. I was like, I’m sorry, what? 

Theresa: Basically, and I’m sure they were selling a Christian child. 

Angie: Well, no, what had happened, and I’m sure this goes back to Richard infamously massacring 3,000 prisoners, but some of Saladin’s men had gotten hold. One story says of the mother and the child, one story says just of the child, and they’re just like going to keep it for whatever reason, and Saladin’s like, actually, no. 

Ransom, the child, I will pay it and give the child back to his mother, and like, passing it a bit. Because for him, it was never about the people, your average people, it was never about that. He wanted them to be able to go about their lives, and we are literally just stopping that from happening. So he was doing whatever he could to ensure that your average Joe’s continued on making bread, going to school, things like that. There are, at this point, I was going to say, you bring up 

Theresa: a good point because the average Joe is still living their life. They’re still going to work. They’re still doing laundry, and crusaders are stumbling through their living room every day, all the time. 

Angie: So he’s doing his best, and I think for his part, probably King Richard is too, but it’s not always going great. He makes poor life choices like we all do, but not quite on the scale that he did. There are, at this point, there are negotiations like between marriage proposals, but they all fail. And then in 1192, some sort of truth occurs with the crusaders, like they’re holding the coastal holding. So they have tear to java, and this also allows for unarmed Christian pilgrims to come to Jerusalem, and it grants three years peace. So this is like, cool, let’s go home, let’s do what we’re going to do. We’ll talk about it later. 

Like, we’re over this. Soledad’s tactics prevented Jerusalem’s complete loss despite Richard’s efforts, which I was like, probably should have been in Soledad’s hands anyways, because it seems like he was a better administrator of the city to begin with. Like I said, at this point, our guy, he’s like 55 years old, and he would choose to spend the next little bit of time working on administrative things, bringing, you know, showing up as a patron for things, justice, things like that. 

But eventually he is stricken by a fever in Damascus, and he dies on March 4th, 1193. He’s 55, 56 years old. When they opened the vault to prepare his body, one source said there was one gold coin and 40 silver pieces left. 

I’ve also heard 37 coins. Either way, thing was damn near empty. It was so empty, and here’s the thing. He gave away all of his wealth, which when you consider how rich Egypt was when he got there, like, bro, what were you doing? 

Theresa: At one point, fighting the crusaders. 

Angie: Yeah, at one point to continue fighting the crusades, he was selling off his library to his friends so that he could have crusading money. But also, he was incredibly generous, like, to the point that his advisors would hide money from him just to keep the country’s going without him knowing, because he would just give it away. He saw no purpose for him to have it, so give it to whoever needs it. Build something, do something with it. That said, the book that I listened to said that they actually had to borrow the things to prepare his body for death, because he literally owned nothing of his own. Wow. Which is crazy to me when you think about the vast amount of land that he possessed, that he could have sort of kept to himself the riches of, and he did not. 

He gave it all away. He is buried in the Umayyad Mosque, Garden Mausoleum in Damascus, in a simple wooden coffin. What I think is fascinating about it is currently, the mausoleum holds two sarcophagi, one made of wood, which is said to contain the remains of Soledin, but they’re not allowed to open it. 

And another one made of marble, which was built in homage to Soledin by the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Ahami II in the late 19th century, and then was later restored by German Emperor Wilhelm II. So, Sam D said there. Right. What’s interesting about Soledin is, aside from the fact that he was like the worst thing that a crusader could come across as far as his brilliance, he is revered in Muslim, Kurdish, Arab, and European cultures across the board for his chivalry, his generosity, and his success. Christians, like Richard, absolutely praise him. 

Like they had so much mutual respect for each other, he couldn’t. He is considered, quote, a virtuous pagan by medieval poets, and the hand of God by others. But what he is to me is a really fascinating man who lived a really fascinating life, and he sort of embodies this romantic notion of chivalry and knighthood, and also the noble villain, which I think is such a fun, like he gets to play that character for everybody. 

But he’s a good man, like just trying to do his job. And at least four people had to die for him to get there. I think it’s closer to six, but it’s like around four. And I’m like, holy cow, buddy. 

Theresa: Yeah, but how many did he have a direct hand in? I mean debatable. 

Angie: There, yeah, I mean it could go back and forth, right? Because even in his own time, of course, there are nice sayers, there are going to be haters that would have immediately tagged Nuruddin’s death on him, like, oh, you poisoned him six months ago, and it just took the phone for him to die. Like there are a lot of people that could have said one thing or the other. And if they did, okay, I didn’t stop him from doing his job. But it was good at what he did. 

Yeah, he was so good at what he did. And now that I told you that story, I can hopefully get this song out of my head. That is the story of Sala Hadim. 

Theresa: Well, I’m going to take us in a wildly different direction. 

Angie: I was going to tell a story for Richard the Lionheart. 

Theresa: No, no, no, we are going a different era. We’re staying in Europe, but this is going to be completely unhinged. My sources are curious archives of murky truth about the meowing French nuns, the International Faculty Association, a bizarre case of mass hysteria by Maya Barakova, mass dilutions and hysteria highlights from the past millennium by Robert E. Bartholomew and E. Rich Good. 

Angie: Did you say the meowing like meowing like meowing? Meowing, meowing nuns. 

Theresa: Okay, now I’m going to tell you the truth. Most of this is going to be just straight up copy pasted from the Curious Archive, the first source, because there, aside from the one paragraph rehashed over and over and over and over again, there are very few sources for this. Okay. And Curious Archives did a fantastic job, so I am just shameless. 

Angie: So you shamelessly, yeah. I’m going to just basically read one of these articles to you with a couple of other factoids from other things chef did. Okay, let’s go. All right. So one day there’s a nun living in a convent in France, sometime during the medieval period. 

Theresa: She begins to meow like a cat. After a very brief time, other nuns in the convent begin to meow with her in unison. The nuns are so loud that the sound carried to the town below disturbing the residents with bizarre sounds coming from the normally peaceful convent. After continuing for a number of days, police were brought into… 

Angie: I’m so sorry. This is just a nun with ADHD, Tiffany. Yes. She just wants to hear the sound. 

Theresa: And strangely got the others to follow suit. Love it. Okay, carry on. So the police show up in order to cease the bizarre orchestra and they’re only be able to do so by threatening to whip the offending nuns. 

This is not a porn box that I am reading, although I feel like it probably is the synopsis of something somewhere. Do not send me photographic evidence. I will not be indulging. Now, the very… Listen, don’t judge. I’m not going to judge. We listen and we don’t judge here. We do not listen that much and we definitely judge something. 

Angie: We are definitely judging. 

Theresa: Now, we have no clue why the first nun began to lose her mind and meow and why the other nuns joined. Total mystery. But the thing is, we don’t know truly if it happened. Did it? Do we have proof? I mean, it is somewhere in the medieval period. It is somewhere in France. You hear all the wiggle words? 

Angie: I didn’t even realize that you didn’t say a town. You said somewhere in France. Somewhere in France. 

Theresa: You hear how little bit of facts that I allegedly… You know why I grab it hold so hard on this one. JSTOR gave me nothing. Devastating. Meanwhile, everyone is shaking their heads that JSTOR would serve me in this endeavor. You’d be right to assume that I’m insane. Now, the source for the new… 

Angie: People have had some real wild papers written so I don’t know why they wouldn’t show up on JSTOR. 

Theresa: Okay, but the mass delusions and hysteria insights or hysteria highlights from the past millennia, that came from JSTOR. Okay, see, there you go. But it was like… So it was just like you’re supporting the abstract. It wasn’t like, here’s a 17-page paper on how the nuns meowed, which that’s what I wanted when I’m honest. 

Okay, but the source of the meowing nuns, this comes from… This book is still published. The Epidemics of the Middle Ages published in 1844 London. It is a compilation from Justice Frederick Carl Hecker. There’s three books. Okay, The Dancing Mania, 1832, The Black Death, 1832, The Sweating Sickness, 1834. And they’re published in Berlin and they’re written in German. 

Angie: So we learned German last week. 

Theresa: No, because the first two are widely available in English as a joint book. That’s nice. Now, the Sweating Sickness has been retitled, The Epidemics of the Middle Ages, and it just… You retitle like that because you want to strip the whimsy out of your life. 

Angie: Honestly, because I need information about the Sweating Sickness. That is something that goes through my mind at least once a week. 

Theresa: And we get none of that. It’s just no whimsy, just Epidemics of the Middle Ages. Lane. But that one is widely available to read for free on the interwebs. I’ll pick it. All right. So there is a guy, a translator named Benjamin Guy Babington. How… That is an awesome name. 

Angie: English can use sound. Honestly. Benjamin Guy Babington? Yes. I know what he looks like. I don’t even need to use his as a description picture. I… 

Theresa: Ascot wearing motherfucker right here. Now, he is the one, not Hecker, that mentions the gnawing nuns in a note that he leaves in his translation in the Dancing Mania. In his note, he writes, quote, I have read a good medical work that a nun in a very large convent in France began to mule like a cat. Shortly afterwards, other nuns also mule. At last, all the nuns mule together every day for a certain time for several hours together. The whole surrounding Christian neighborhood heard with equal chagrin and astonishment this daily cat concert, which did not cease until all the nuns were informed that a company of soldiers were placed by the police before the entrance of the convent and that they would be provided with rods and would continue whipping until they promised not to mule anymore. 

Angie: That is the most British paragraph I’ve ever heard. Chagrin. Exactly, right? 

Theresa: They did not register their concern over lesbian tendencies though. 

Angie: You could only use that one once, you know. 

Theresa: You know, when I was thinking about that though, I was thinking that they did in the Dancing Plague that we covered in a previous episode. There was no threats of violence. Like the city of Strasbourg provided food, DJs, dance floors. 

Theresa: That’s right. They built a stage for that. They got a stage. Yeah, that’s what I thought. 

Angie: France is not about it. They’ll be stopping right now. 

Theresa: We’re over it. Now, Robert E. Bartholomew and Eric Good, right? During the Middle Ages, dozens of outbreaks of hysterical fits and imitative behaviors were reported among the repressed nuns, cloistered in European convents. Volunteers, definitely in quotation marks, were often forced by their parents into joining religious orders against their will and to lead celibate lives that included vows of poverty, demanding physical labor, or and demanding physical labor. During this time, it was widely believed that humans could be possessed by certain animals, such as wolves. In France, cats were particularly despised as they were considered familiar with the devil. It was perhaps this context that triggered the unusual episode of collective behavior described in the passage. All I have to say 

Angie: is they’re leaving out the fact that, yes, some were sent to the convents and some of them had girlfriends that would burn it down to get you out. Thank you, Julia. 

Theresa: What is her last name? Doppney. Doppney. Julie Doppney. Mm-hmm, just saying. Now, my big problem with that, and all of this, is that they are taking this event at face value. 

They’re just like, yeah, bunch of nuns, got together, meowed at them. Sorry to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m just like, okay, now, there’s other articles that would go on to be like, cats, they’re in league with the devil, tied to superstitions. This is why the nuns would be so feared for meowing, right? 

How dare you? But thinking back, why did they start meowing in the first place? What is the reason for the mass hysteria? Because at least in Strasbourg, we have lots of political instability, food shortages. There was syphilis ripping its way through the countryside. Lots of things to be concerned about. 

Angie: That sort of explained that behavior for sure. And honestly, blaming this devil for cats meowing is just like, it’s giving the devil looking for ways to irritate people. I think he’s got other plans. 

Theresa: I think he’s going to go a little bit bigger than you. Yeah, exactly. So one of the things, one of the sources said we should consider looking at this perspective of somebody living in a monastery in the Middle Ages. So back then, joining a convict, just like we kind of said before, I’m going to double tap here, would mean being socially isolated with a near starvation regimen. Oh. I didn’t realize rations were that short. 

Angie: We are not making bread every day like I thought. I don’t want the convent life that never mind. 

Theresa: I mean, I guess we’re making bread, but we’re making enough for all of the sisters and barely that. 

Angie: Well, that’s stupid because my sourdough recipe gets me too low. How many sisters are here not making bread? 

Theresa: They’re maybe doing the daily long prayers. 

Angie: Oh, okay. Anyway, carry on then. 

Theresa: But apparently this would require maybe an outlet for frustrations. So conflict, labor, poverty, emotional deprivation. And they start acting out. Now, there have been, brace yourself for this next one. There have been cases in Germany and even the Netherlands of nuns biting people. 

Angie: Listen, I like my seclusion. 

Theresa: As a biter, I typically just go for husband. Yeah. That’s who I’m going on. Yeah. But the concept of biting humans is, you know, kind of mild apparently doesn’t feel mild to the meowing. I feel like they are placing emphasis on the wrong thing, a group of meowing people versus those with teeth. 

Angie: Yeah, those choosing to use their teeth. Yeah. Yeah. 

Theresa: I feel like, you know, once you become a weapon, there’s issues. But I guess it all goes back to the fact that the nuns started meowing. That bothers them. So the back to the can’t concert, we only really have that one instance, that one little mention by Babington. But we don’t have anything, any information other than a very large convent that was in a good medical work. There’s no date, but the translator Babington himself felt that this was worth to add to the conversation on medieval meptimics. And so because the middle ages stretch from 500 to 1500 CE, I guess it’s like the person who, you know, I pulled this quote from, they said it’s not out of the question that Babington did read a case in a medical text about some point in his career. Because Babington is the son of a physician who studied at Guy’s Hospital at Pembroke College in Cambridge. He received his doctorate in 1831. He lectured at Royal College of Physicians and also acted as president of numerous medical societies. 

So he’s got some chops. So if he says he read something, maybe he did. I just, I’m as frustrated with the author as like, why did he not cite the book? Literally, set your source. 

Literally, especially if you’re providing the footnotes. Now, when you research this, there’s going to be online sources that claim that this meowing net incident occurs in 1844. But apparently that’s just confusing the publication date of Babington’s footnote and the epidemics of the Middle Ages. 

Angie: Not the date of the event. That makes sense. Okay. 

Theresa: Now, if you look back 50 years before that work was published, you might find the name of Babington’s quote, Good Medical Work. Originally published in 1780s, there’s a Swiss physician and philosopher named Johann George Zimmerman. He has a book called Solitude. In this exam, it’s the effects of isolation on the mind and the recommended balance between both solitude society. He has a chapter on the influence of solitude in the imagination and our meowing nuns. They come to the forefront. 

Okay. Quote, A French medical writer of great merit and undoubted veracity relates that in a convent of nuns where the sisterhood was unusually numerous, one of those secluded fair ones was seized with a strange impulse to mew like a cat. That several others of the nuns in a short time followed her example. And at length, this uncountable propensity became general throughout the convent. The whole sisterhood joined at stated periods in the practice of meowing and it continued for several hours. 

Angie: I want it to be real soon. 

Theresa: I want it to be real too, especially when he’s like, she was hot because she was the fair one. 

Angie: Yeah. Oh my God. Why would you make that up? 

Theresa: Have you been on the internet before? I feel like there’s, yeah. 

Angie: Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. 

Theresa: But that’s this thing is another dead end because we don’t have any more detail than we had originally other than the first nun was hot. Now, they both like apparently… How does he know? His source that he doesn’t quote. Of course. Of course. So either we got Battington making a vague reference to Zimmerman and the solitude thing that I just quoted, or both men are quoted in the same medical text that nobody decides to say the name or source. 

But they do happen. Now, so the previous medical text, it could have been lost. It could have been destroyed. The library of Alexandra could have contained it and burned down and somehow Battington and Zimmerman knew about it. But their copy strangely got lost. Or it could just be living in someone’s private collection. 

We don’t know. So if you have an old book about meowing nuns, would you please write it at unhinged.historypod at gmail.com. Would you like to see your source please? Yes. But now the whole thing strangely could have happened, right? It could have been a rebellion. It could have been a weird prank. 

Or Zimmerman, he hypothesized that this could have been the influence of solitude on the mind. Okay. Which, you know what, we had the dancing plagues. Plural. So the stranger things have happened, I suppose. 

Yeah. But perhaps the unknown medical writer who shared his findings, Zimmerman, in conversation, maybe it never went further. Maybe he never wrote it down. 

And so Zimmerman was just going off the top, writing down the conversation. We don’t know. Because there’s no way to prove that this event took place. Right, right. Or it could be that Zimmerman made the entire thing up. 

Yes. Because on page 211 of solitude, when he introduces the meowing nuns, he includes this statement. The female mind is no more subject to these delusions of disordered fantasy, for as their feelings are more exquisite, their passions warmer, and their imaginations more active than those of the other sex. 

Solitude, when carried to excess, affects them to a much greater degree. Cool, bro. I can’t tell if that’s a compliment. I don’t think so. I think this is men saying women are the crazy ones. I’ve never been so angry that I’ve threatened to kill somebody with a sword like we see all throughout history of men. Yeah. We’ve got Julie Doppe, but you know, a couple of other slain fighters. 

Angie: I mean, we have some women that have done a thing or two. But they are the exceptions to the rule. Well, for the most part, a meowing lady is probably just talking to her cat. Right. 

Theresa: Or just screwing around. 

Angie: Yeah. But the ADHD hits me and you get that sound and you just can’t stop. 

Theresa: And the Aqualalia just takes over and next thing you know. Dude, both me and my co-worker. 

Theresa: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Four hours. 

Theresa: I would introduce you to the business end of a stapler. 

Angie: I would listen. I tried the first time and was like, actually, that’s kind of a near-tech. I do like the way that rolls off the tongue. I hate it here. 

Theresa: This is why I work remote and I stay in my office with my door shut, my noise-canceling headphones on. 

Angie: Anyhow. I can’t wear noise-canceling headphones because he gets upset that I’m not listening to him. 

Theresa: He just stays louder. 

Angie: Yeah, pretty much. 

Theresa: But either way, I can’t prove it didn’t or didn’t happen. It theoretically could have, theoretically couldn’t have, or maybe not didn’t. It happened. It probably happened. I mean, we had the dancing plagues. 

Angie: Plagues plural. I’m saying it happened. It happened in my mind. Can’t tell me no. Especially when we know that one of them was fair. The evidence is mounting here. Right. 

Theresa: That is the story of the meowing nuns. I love it. 

Angie: Thank you for that. And I am over here wondering how the hell I’m going to make a TikTok for it. Thanks. 

Theresa: You know what? I’m here to give, I mean, because I was, I have sat on the story for a year, not finding sources, not finding sources. And then I finally went, you know what? Forget it. Do it. I need whimsy. Yeah. 

Angie: Sometimes you need a little whimsy in your life. I am here for whimsy every day, every single day. Live, have fun. 

Theresa: Yeah. So that, that hoax square on your bingo card, fill it in or don’t. Your choice. We love a good hoax. 

Angie: We also love knowing that our listeners now say hoax wrong. Yeah. Well, because it’s right to us, but you know, good for you. Well, she’s shaking her head at me. 

Theresa: Well, I don’t, can you hear the dogs going absolutely bananas in the background? No. We had a delivery man show up and my dog was attacked me from said serial killer. 

Angie: Because there’s literally cereal in that bag. 

Theresa: Well, I was thinking they can tell that man’s been to several other houses. The only reason why he would show up is because murder. He’s here to take you out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you have enjoyed this bizarre whimsical adventure from solid and to meowing nuns and you’re thinking, what in the hell are they going to bring me next week? The truth is we’ve no idea. But next week we figured out and tell the other also rate review, subscribe, actually like, you know, tell other people about this preferably in a digital format so that you can inspire and grow the ranks of the other unhinged, the unhinged people. And on that note, goodbye. Bye. Love it. I didn’t shit your pillowcase.